3T and 3T-GTE CrankS

[toyota1515]

Kujula, is ovious you really are missunderstanding the metalurgy here,

You just said billet = cast, and 4340 tool steel is not pressed, and it is formed from molten metal, lol

Is more than ovious you dont know what are you talking about, so nevermind buddy, i do rest my case, i wont argue about this with you any more, no point of it if you dont understand the metalurgy.

Just google how the 4340 tool steel is made and why is better and stronger than forged steel.

[J-M kujala]

You just said billet = cast, and 4340 tool steel is not pressed and formed from molten metal,

You try to turn everything upside down...you try to turn talk about are those oem cranks Cast or Forged talk to somewehre else bcz youre wrong in stock cranks... billett cranks are not casted they have been done from big chunk of steel as far you and i know, those chunks are not allways forged, those can also be forged. (i dont talk 4340 just now) we are just designing 3D pics and ordering material to 86mm stroke "3TC" Cranks...

billetts are not "stamped" we call cranks Forged when they are pressed to the shape... when talk about oem style non billett cranks

Cast is cast, Forged is Forged, Stamped in FIA papers mean pressed to the shape (stock style cranks) and moulted basicly everything else. cast cranks maded to the mould, billett cranks etc, billetts are inside word Moulded in Fia rules they can be forged or non forged... main thing is they are not pressed to the shape.

2T Cranks as far all those what i have write before, T engine cranks are casted, and there is some homolocated racing cranks what are Forged, (pressed to the shape/Stamped, how FIA says that) and who stupid make 2 identical cranks what bought are Forged ? as far i know and you dont get the point that stock is Cast from high quality material.. race crank is Forged.

so stock style cranks: Stamped = Forged and Moulded is casted. and all T engine stock cranks are Casted.

with ringing that your bell you can found only low quality casted cranks, what are near standard cast iron... std cast iron kills vibration inside it and steel sounds a steel, not matter is it casted forged or steel bar or what ever..



Stay at home and ring your bells, and be happy.

PS: youre just like my wifes father... he cannot never ever accept that he`s wrong... easyer is to stop talking with him.. It is maybe better to do with you now...

[toyota1515]

Is either you are lost in definition or you are plain dumb buddy.

It is imposible to a plain cast crank achieve the resonance of a forged crank (the bell like sound) when hitted with a hammer, cuz no mater how good is the metal a simple cast dont achieve the grain structure to do so AND THATS A FACT my friend,

I am not trying to turn nothing arround i just read what you just post and is dead wrong, but looks like you describe yourself in your inlaw story,

T cranks are all forged there is no doubt about it but i dont know what you dont understand about it,

I think you are just lost in space with your FIA papers and the other words you got for it (molded or stamped) as soon as you bring those 2 words to a cast vs forged discusion you get lost,!and dead wrong on your definitions, but even more you just dont understad shit about resonance propertys or grain structure of foged vs cast cranks,

So yes you better stop fighting a loose battle about this,

All in all you know it is imposible to a cast crank no matter how good the metal used in that casting survive more than 450 hp in one of these litte engines, hell the stronger cast crank i have evere seen did survive in a 520 hp v8 before it grenade itself 3 month later and it wasnt a turbo motor that sees more stress, sometimes you got to study real books and stop google in info bro.

[J-M kujala]

So to the Conclusion.

2 different 2TG crank, one with narrow moulding joints and another with wide moulding joints (2TG race crank)... otherwise these 2 are identical.

you`re opinion Bought are Forged. (because they sounds like bell and can hold HP)

mine opinion is narrow is Cast and wide is Forged.

So who ever read this topic, can think who they believe...

those old american made V8 got really poor quality cast, more near about cast iron. so i do not care about those comments at old american made cannot hold with cast cranks. some engines got really good quality cast cranks... Toysport says 3T is forged and 4Y is cast... bought got identical type of colour, finishing, mould joint area, and sound when hammered.. also when used angle grinder those spark are identical... so i do not believe what writed to the internet...

[toyota1515]

Sorry but the american cast crank i was talking about was aftermarket for stroker Mopars small block, and it is a very good Cast crank, but as i said before no matter how good the cast crank is, a cast crank is not capable of big HP numbers for long.

i have deal with stroker Y cranks in T engines and the reason no one are using em is cuz they dont stand the abuse, and i test it way before the internet, i didnt read about it,

You got a good way to stay clear of admitting you are wrong, so, ok bro whatever turns you on,

[J-M kujala]

Blah blah blah blah!
i know how cranks are manufactured,

A factory cast crank is made in a mold by pouring the molten metal into it and let it cool down in a controlled environment.

A factory forged crank is made in a mold also with molten metal pour in to it but then it is pressed to several hundred tons to bring the grains of the molten to a more denser structure making it way stronger than plain cast.

Now that i took you to school and give the lesson of your life in cast vs forged FOR FREE, you can go and tell your buddies a Damn Puerto Rican taught you a big lesson today on metallurgy 101, and how a crank is made and its several variations, plus another lesson on how to know when to keep your mouth shut to not make yourself look like an idiot! LOL

youre a bad teacher..... i think thats why you have messed up Forged vs Cast thing.

First, you talk about casting method, Then High pressure Casting method.. im not sure if correct word is DIE-Casting, but High pressure / pressed casting method anyways.

Forged cranks are not manufactured in the way that molten metal is poured to mold.

Forged cranks are Forged, Stamped,pressed to the shape from ~1000 Celsius degree hot piece of steel. see next video and take some lesson about forging, and where those ridges coming from. just like Morgo says.

narrow sharp ridge= cast
wide ridge=forged.

story about 4Y crank cant hold as much as 3TC crank is Correct, but when used 4Y crank in 3TC you had to cut down those Counterweights and thats bad for Crankshaft life... internal balance between mains of crankshaft goes way hell far away at good, 3TC crank is near perfect at internal balance between mains... also american made v8 engines cannot desingn to be in internal balance between mains... thats why i do not want rev my 4Y cranked 2T engine.. keep rpm down is minimize vibrations and resonances what kill`s everything. if you cut 50% of those 3TC counterweights, it wont survive in high rpm and power as long as stock one...

that story is out there what tells about qounterweight job and how to kill vibrations and minimize them to get bearing, block, crank etc survive longer. its all about desingning those parts. take some lesson about it. good material always help the life also... but thats maybe only thing where we have same opinion.

Black bolded YOURE text what i have been loan, you have been write it, so you may had to think it....

[toyota1515]

Ohhhhhohohohoho, sorry i ment hot roled steel not molten anyone can mistake words in a explanation when english is not the first language you know better than that.

I am no Teacher, and not bragging about that,

And again you guys are not 100% right on the narrow ridge and wide ridge as a rule of thumb cuz not all the crank forgins are made the same way or with the same machinery,

In the Y crank matter, first, you dont need to cut 50% of the couterweights, second, if you cut a little of the counterweights is ovious you will need to re-balance the whole shibang (rotating assembly) from the harmonic balancer to the preassure plate and it will eliminate any vibrations that creates any failure, but the crank is not up to the task plain and simple, i have seen T motors with the T crank cut knife edge that is significant more to what you need to cut the Y crank and reving all the way up to 11k so please buddy you cant tell that, also it is posible to cast cranks to be internally balanced. Uz i have seen em many times in V8's

Also you can apply your little banner yourself too buddy as i am not angry or need to cool down, i am just having a awesome discusion here about a very interesting topic.

[J-M kujala]

In the Y crank matter, first, you dont need to cut 50% of the couterweights, second, if you cut a little of the counterweights is ovious you will need to re-balance the whole shibang (rotating assembly) from the harmonic balancer to the preassure plate and it will eliminate any vibrations that creates any failure

not weight of the counterweight.. but approx inertia % of counterweight, because had to cut at outer part of the counterweight usually 8-12mm depends at piston / rod Mambo JamBo Combo.. with 123mm rod -12mm and 127mm rod -8mm 127mm rod 1" approxx height of the piston, shorter is not made to streets anymore, (my personal opinion) . and offcource balacing when touched to the rotating parts. but after machining counterweight is losted important counterweight mass of the crank..

but the crank is not up to the task plain and simple, i have seen T motors with the T crank cut knife edge that is significant more to what you need to cut the Y crank and reving all the way up to 11k so please buddy you cant tell that.

yeap, they can survive 3T cranks, but cutting counterweight, newer help the crank to survive... again my opinion, and im quite sure about it, the crank had shorter life after that and also main bearings and block got more stress. with internal balance between 2 mains (think one cylinder engine in balance) help a lot. counterweight side had to be heavier than rod side to be that... 3T cranks are, but 4Y crank are not, when cutting those cranks, 3TC is not going SO far to wrong side at balance than 4Y. That how much counterweight side is had to be heavier as rod side (calculated at piston /rod weights), is another story and there is different opinions on that. my opinion is perfect race cranks had to designed (when weight is not main thing what matter) as a rotational desing with rod and piston weight together when design cranks, but that something what we dont had to do... only maybe think are there enough counterweight and in what crank and to what use.

cast cranks to be internally balanced. Uz i have seen em many times in V8's

basicly i have never ever think more than 1 second is that possible to do in V8 engines. cut crank middle of the mains and put to balacing machine and get it turn without jumping off (rod pin weight added or not) and bought end of the mains are in balance... in straight engine that is possibble, no needed. but reduce vibration if that is done, that had to make in a drawing desk to be internally balanced between main, internally balancing can do to every axles (whole axle), but between mains only when designing crank.. i dont know if you get the point what i try to tell... whatever, counterweights are important and 4 counterweighted crank using in high rev 4 cyl engine is not clever thing if 8 counterweighted is available... 4 counterweight always start to bendt axle in high rev.

i am just having a awesome discusion here about a very interesting topic.

i think we do not get any solution to this case, so all other guys can get own opinion. we bought get own.. but i stand behind my words.. (there is also a lot writing mistakes etc) also still get opinion that there can be good enough cast cranks, because they basicly can made at quite good materials. not those basic cast iron types... and japanese are known to use quite good materials (steels) in many places..

And again you guys are not 100% right on the narrow ridge and wide ridge as a rule of thumb cuz not all the crank forgins are made the same way or with the same machinery,

yes different machinery, but same rule at every stock type Forged cranks, they are forged, stamped, pressed etc to the shape and moldings moving. in that video also you can see where those ridges coming from, you cant press the hot solid piece of steel without loosing base material out between molds. in cast molds are not moving and they are quite tight together, and thats why there is so small ridge.

if you can tell how it can be done without ridges, im interested to see / know.

[MorGo]

Well,I don't know what they are but it's up to you!
If there is nothing to compare to can you tell what is what??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxmbGBx0Ybg

All complaints to to video maker..

Very interesting video of how the industrial scale block casting is made! (well,some phases are left out (I have worked in foundry..) but informative anyway!)
And it's a 2JZ-GE block!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0gE0D95gOA

[NME308]

Thanks Morgo very interesting videos!
My guess goes to the top crank in the video being the forged one based on both look and sound... Grainy picture but top crank appears to have the rounder edges and wide part line and rings like a bell when hit. Bottom crank looks to have nice sharp edges and sounds 'dull' by comparison...
Seems to line up with the discussions from above.

I have also wondered similar your comment of not knowing which is which without a comparison i.e. would a ford 6cyl cast crank make the same sound as (whichever one it really is!) cast crank from the youtube video???

Cheers,
Jason

[ctrain]

sorry for the thread revival but ive come across a 3tgte bottom end (yeah i know it basically a 2t/3t bottem end)

my question is would it be better to use the 3tgte crank rather then my 3t crank thats in my current 3t block atm, im going for low comp wisesco 87mm forged pistons with eagle rods, would these suit the 3tgte crank? also im still confused is the 3tgte crank cast or forged?

I just want a strong bottom end for my turbo motor

[toyota81]

I recently got new cranks made that'll bring 2TG's up to an extra 149cc (2090cc) When gettin' them made I had to order 4 minimum so have them for sale now. Perfect quality! Let your friends know.
Tha.

[AE25]

ctrain; 8weight T cranks are known to be strong. regardless of how they're manufactured. 3t or 3tgte.
8 counter weights are better than 4 as they're better balanced. Just look at any modern high performance production engine. ie from toyota the 4age, 2zzge, 3sge which all have 2 counter weights per piston.

This vid shows the forged vs cast sound with clear identification between cranks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dA1A...eature=related

I think maybe toyota1515 is not distinguishing between cast iron and cast steel?
So, is there a difference in bell sound between cast steel and forged? probably not? which may be why he says they sound forged?
If toyota1515, you're saying T cranks are cast and then forged afterwards.... WHERE ARE THE FORGING MARKS?!
From all the 3tgte cranks i've checked, they have a sand cast finish and a thin parting line down the middle. There's no visual sign of forging after it has been cast.

Happy to be proved wrong, i'm not taking sides toyota1515, but your side of the debate doesn't sound right when there's no signs of forging. hitting a crank with a hammer is not 100% proof. That just indicates it's not cast iron. Neither is info copy/pasted from a website. the smallprint says it all.. "Toysport shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon."
btw, I'm a toolmaker by trade.
J-M kujala- I understand and agree to your explanation of the FIA moulded/stamped specifications. I believe it was taken out of context.
kthxbye
*waits for keyboard backlash*

[ctrain]

so if my 3t block turns out to have a late 3t crank (8 counterweight) theres no point in gettin a 3tgte crank?

[J-M kujala]

All 3T cranks are with 8 counterweight, early and late type, late type is heavier with bigger counterweights.

Bought can handle massive amount of Power. Bought work well and accept eagles & wisecos.

My opinion is, no needed to hunt late type "3TGTE" crank, if got bought in good condition, then my choise is late type.