3T and 3T-GTE CrankS

[J-M kujala]

2T / 3T engines use same blocks than 3tgte. Got them... Also 3tgte rods found inside 2T / 3T. (late type)


Cranks are cast.... From good material.. Some serious race engines also use cast cranks, there is no reason to make forged from like CrMo, mok44... Etc M series BMW also got cast cranks... you can cast them... Like billett cranks most of them are made from "solid cast" not forged.

If want to save material and use cheaper, then can made it from forged not so high quality iron, cast steel is going over it... Last one is seriously forged steel. Usually forged cranks in stock applications are not usually made at so high quality material than from some cast steel ones...
also non forged iron cranks used in some engines... The story from non forged is weak. Is false.

[J-M kujala]

Cast steel sounds about the same than forged cranks... Cast iron sounds different, because cast iron kill renonances inside it.

Trick to found the sound is you can found the weakest one. Cast iron..

But OK some of here think to know everything. Eyes open and open minded to see all sides of the story....

[toyota1515]

Kujula sorry but you are wrong about the cranks buddy, plus the 2-3t blocks are similar to 3-4tgte but not quite, the main caps are different at least here in the STATES,

[J-M kujala]

2-3t blocks are similar to 3-4tgte but not quite, the main caps are different at least here in the STATES,

did they sell like 83 / 84 T engines in States ? because those main caps come only to a late like 83-> engines..


i wont fight with you with this crank story, but you see only a Cast and Forged... nothing else ? in old days (and some v8 engines in states) that was the story, wide area is forged and narrow cast, and if crank is sound like bell when you hit it it is always forged... Nope... Cast Steel sounds like bell also... also some people talks about cranks that if they can hold more than 100 hp / piston they got always forged cranks...

2T Blocks in ~83-84 Toyota TA60 Carina and TE71 corolla in Europe, got same block and main caps than 3TGTE / 4TGTE block. same thing to rods... i know the difference what you talk about. oil return hole is undrilled, but cast is same and main caps... i got just one like that in my Celica 2TG Hybrid. mains are Big ones.. also connection rod accept new style / 3TGTE bearings (that one small oil hole is little bit different location..) i think in states not sold 2T:s / 3T:s in 82--> ? there is also block what got those oil return things, knock sensor places etc, but mains are small...

2TG engine got homolocated (FIA) Forged crank to 2TG engine. (got those race engine homolocation papers and that FORGED crank noted over there.. all other specs in crank are the same than stock had. Stock one is Cast.. in 2T. also 126E Engine use that same forged crankshaft, otherwise samekind than stock but wide "mould joint area" or how its called..

also that forged crank picture found from this Toymods site.. http://www.toymods.org.au/~rod/2TG%2...rank%20002.jpg as you see in picture, toyota T engine Forged got that wider area also..

~700 hp have been taken with Stock cast crank from 2T, and near 10 000 rpm, so the cast crank is not problem in 2T bottom... 2T and 3T early cranks got approx same material... also those 2 crank what is linked before to this topic, new and old type (3tgte), they use a little different cast... (or talk about base material)


im not talking what is States and what is where, i mean Worldwide...

2T turbo style block (note undrilled oil return) http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i3...t/DSC00085.jpg

and left is stock main from this engine (turbo style block) and right is older type. http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i3...t/DSC00231.jpg

[J-M kujala]

Just do some search within FIA homolcation papers... those got some important notines at some parts , and cars had to homolocate to get race with them...

papers are done within FIA and Toyota

Crank types what i found (stock engines)
T: Moulded
2T: Moulded
3T: Moulded
3TGTE: Moulded
4TGTE: Moulded
18R: Stamped
18RG: Stamped

Moulded = Cast and Stamped = Forged if i have understund correct....

all stock Main caps: Cast iron.

126E holocated / 2TG Race crank was (photo before) are marked as a Stamped...

[toyota1515]

Kujula, all cranks are casted but how they do it is what difere a forged from a simple cast and no do simple cast crank will ring like a bell, cuz the grains in the material are not so dense to do so, it is simple metalurgy buddy, now, billet cranks are not made from castings forgins buddy they are cut from solid chunks of tool steel, you may be confusing the things buddy. I have been in this industry for more than 28 Years.

By the way no T engines in the states after 1982.

And also i know the wide or narrow area is not suited for a rule of thumb to determine if is forged or not, but the resonance is buddy, and have never fail me,

[stidnam]

J-M kujala can you scan the FIA homolcation papers and post them as I'd be interested to see them and I'm sure other people would too.

[toyota1515]

As far as i Know for omologation FIA just need a production of certain amount of production cars with a street version of the engine but didnt care what is on the inside of those street motors, hell all the race 4TGTE motors are way different from the street versions and not even the block or head are close to the Street version!

[ToyTA22]

toyota1515.I have my FIA group 1/ Group A TA23 homologation papers, which are the base regulation for a Production Rally Car class. To obtain Group 1 / A manufacturer needs to produce for public sale a minimum of 5000 vehicles.
Papers say for 2tg :- Material of crankshaft Steel. Can't find manufacturing process though. i.e cast or forged
I just found, Type of crankshaft Moulded Integral

[toyota1515]

Thats a very vage way to describe it IMO, it could be interpretated in many diferent ways, both cast and forged cranks are made with a mold, with the only diference od the cast are molten metal poured in the mold and the forged is hot roled metal forced in a mold,

It is imposible that cast cranks adquired the resonance bell ring when hit cuz they dont have the structure density to achive such property.

Toysport is the only company in USA that work hand in hand with TRD on the Toyota Race Program in USA and the only ones with acces to the factory race engine in the states, and in their notes they confirm all T engines comes with forged cranks, so knowing that and what i know about cranks and metalurgy used on the manufacturing of cranks plus being an engine builder for so long working specially with T engines and have achive many crazy numbers on engine that i am 300% sure a cast crank wont survive half of they horsepower there is no divine power in this world that can contradict me in this matter.

[ToyTA22]

toyota1515.
I wasn't trying cotradict you at all, actually I totally support your idea i.e sound of metal when hit with hammer.
Yes metals can still be steel either moulded, forged or cast as you said. As already said forming process affects metal structure and density.
I was just showing what material crank was made from.
hoping it would give more information to the other people who believe there cast, as in open cell grey cast iron.

[toyota1515]

toyota1515.
I wasn't trying cotradict you at all, actually I totally support your idea i.e sound of metal when hit with hammer.
Yes metals can still be steel either moulded, forged or cast as you said. As already said forming process affects metal structure and density.
I was just showing what material crank was made from.
hoping it would give more information to the other people who believe there cast, as in open cell grey cast iron.

I know Sr. i was just making a statement, not a direct answer to you buddy, what you said was totally correct, only that the crank material statement in the FIA papers is not much informative about it hehehe.

[J-M kujala]

i Call to Mr Ralf Petterson who write a FIA pasports to Historic racing cars (check the cars that they are under rules), what those Stamped and Moulded means... he tould the story. but in short way, these do not tell base material etc only manufacturing process. they bought can accept aluminiums etc, thats why there is Moulded / Stamped, also note steel or something else. also the manufacturing process is known or checked when homolocation papers are done.

Moulded = base material of the crank is done from melted base material (casted). moulded Cranks means Cast and billetts etc. billett crank is done done by big piece off tool steel chunk but is not pressed to the shape(Forged), so the base material is moulded. (those tool steel bars are not "hammered or forged etc") there is pressure castings also, parts can be casted with high pressure to the liquid steel / iron / other metal.. but main thing is mouldings do not move to anywhere.

Stamped = it is pressed / hammered to the shape, these are forged cranks. (like making a coins)

why like 2TG engine got stock type Moulded and race type Stamped.... moulded is cast and forged is Stamped. you have seen picture already in here.
just see that 16Valve 18RG got Moulded crank in race engine, and it is Billett in the picture.



Toyota1515

Bell ringing thing..... sound at base material not come from forged or non forged, its coming from base material quality. Forged cranks cannot be done from poor base material, but cast can. cast cranks can be done from all same material than forged cranks.

Take a real race engine block and hit it with wrench etc... (i dont mean those american made aftermarket race blocks) to the lower part of the block... it will ring like a bell, castings got some good stuff, like some toyota race blocks some nickel etc... stock cast iron block are like thumb or knock ... those blocks are NOT Forged... they cannot be manufactured in that way.. they all are castings

[J-M kujala]

J-M kujala can you scan the FIA homolcation papers and post them as I'd be interested to see them and I'm sure other people would too.

there have been Site what share those papers, but it is pushed down because FIA. FIA share or national "cluB" what is under the FIA and sell those Homolocations. homolocations are always like "open books" if there is something wrong, coming update etc. it is updated or correction is done always to add one extra page... so the check one thing, is you had to read whole "book" that there is nothing changes later.

FIA see that share those homolocations in public way is Piracy, so i dont share mine... in public.. also too much papers to make scan, usually 20-100 page from each "chassis" so like all homolacations what got T engines got like maybe 1000+ or 3000 + pages, who knows.

A2 series celicas got ~200+ pages when different homolacations are calculated together. i think there was 4-6 different...

[J-M kujala]

As far as i Know for omologation FIA just need a production of certain amount of production cars with a street version of the engine but didnt care what is on the inside of those street motors, hell all the race 4TGTE motors are way different from the street versions and not even the block or head are close to the Street version!

Homolocation papers tell what is stock car.... then some added parts to race class .. + mods what racing class accept without or outside homolocations. there is valve size etc... intake runner sizes... carb venturi sizes... measured degrees from camshafts.... gear teeth counts / ratios from gear box... axle types and pictures... a lot information..

one nice thing in TA22 is there is homolocated different front X member.. X-mem got wider moutings to the front lower arm to make get car wider..