VVTI or not

[whatthe?]

You can tell how much torque it makes at 2400rpm from that graph?

Well done sir

Still doesnt disprove my point, infact it proves it;

I don't know what sort of torque a 2J produces, but I'm willing to bet that it makes it's full torque later than 2400rpm.

And who mentioned the 7M here? Find any quote where I ever claimed that engine makes more torque than a 2J?

This is funny, it's like the old 7M vs 2J debate. The self appointed guardians of the old are unable to admit that Toyota may have "gasp" improved design and driveability from one generation to the next

[The Real Roadrunner]

You can tell how much torque it makes at 2400rpm from that graph?

do i need to put it in grid form?

Still doesnt disprove my point, infact it proves it;

how does it read the graph and it will show that the 2jz non vvti makes more torque (everywhere above 1800rpm) than any 1jz ever could with both in standard form.

And who mentioned the 7M here? Find any quote where I ever claimed that engine makes more torque than a 2J?

rona mentioned it in dongs thread so i thought id help stop the arguement while i was at it.


putting grid paper over the graph may help but i dont know where you would find paper big enough to cover your bigarse TV

cheers
linden

[Mos]

Still doesnt disprove my point, infact it proves it;

You based your argument on driveability based on torque output. The graphs clearly illustrate the first generation 2JZ-GTE, while older in technology, provides a superior solution based on your parameters (drivability and torque output), at a similar cost.
Your point, therefore, is invalidated by the data - to suggest anything else does not hold credibility - everyone else can see that, why can't you?

Mos.

[dkabab]

What sort of price range should i be paying for the following. assuming all are auto front cuts

1jz
1jz vvti
2jz
2jz vvti

[whatthe?]

People here have trouble reading, so I'm out. I based my arguement on actually having driven both as well as which engine has been designed reach it's peak torque earliest in the rev range

When you've driven both in vehicles with similar configuration come back and tell me your impressions

[Norbie]

The seat-of-the-pants-ometer is notoriously inaccurate. To make any sort of fair comparison you need to look at the raw numbers, and what has been posted above suggests fairly convincingly that the 2JZ makes more power/torque down low. Given the 500cc advantage this is hardly surprising.

And no-one suggested that Toyota hasn't made improvements with its newer technology; quite the opposite in fact, anyone can see the VVTi 1JZ is a vast improvement on the older TT 1JZ. However, as they say, there's no replacement for displacement.

[whatthe?]

Think I'd rather go by what the driving experience is like rather than lines on a piece of paper created at WOT on an engine dyno, but that's just me

As far as the displacement arguement goes, where did I put the keys to my 308 powered bombadore?

[oldcorollas]

perhaps the transient response of the VVTi is better,...

there is no doubt that the larger motor with larger turbo will make more torque in steady state (which is what the published curves are), but transient response can be very different... ie.. if you have no boost.. you have no boost, and you aren't going to make peak torque figures at that rpm... ie you have to wait a few seconds for the 2J to spool at 2400rpm.. then it isn't making the claimed torque at that time..
(note, i'm not falling either side of the fence as i don't care either way )

[whatthe?]

OC has put it far more succintly than I could have.

The OP has asked which engine for a daily driver/cruiser making no more than 250Kw offers better response and will be nicer to drive on a daily basis.

That's why I think the VVTi 1J is a better fit. In stock form it's just nicer to drive around than the 2J under conditions (ie; stop/start, off boost and not just wot) most likely to be experienced on the road every day

[The Real Roadrunner]

if you have no boost.. you have no boost, and you aren't going to make peak torque figures at that rpm... ie you have to wait a few seconds for the 2J to spool at 2400rpm.. then it isn't making the claimed torque at that time..

true but by the same token the 2jz sequential system makes full boost on the front turbo by 1800rpm, peak torque of 432nm is produced at 3600 but thats when the second turbo hits full boost. from 2000rpm onwards it is making over 400nm which makes the 1jz 37? at 2400 look limpwristed.

question,
what is going to spool up faster, A: a small turbo being spooled by 3L of exhaust gas or B: a medium sized turbo being spooled by a 2.5L? if you think its B then you need your head checked.

matt,
put a 1jz vvti in an A80 and a 2jz in the A61 reckon you would have the same results? i doubt it. the gutless wonder won't have a chance dragging around the weight of an A80 and the only reason it could possibly beat the 2jza61 is due to rediculous amounts of wheelspin created by an ancient suspension design.

i give no shit as to which one makes the earliest peak torque figure, because the 2jz has more torque over the whole graph.

seat of the pants means didly squat when your comparing 2 completely different cars, especially with a 300kg weight difference.

cheers
linden

PS ive never seen with my own eyes a vvti 1jz deliver the goods when modified either

[Mos]

When you've driven both in vehicles with similar configuration come back and tell me your impressions

How about:
2JZ-GTE MX83 Cressida Grande
1JZ-GTE VVTi MX83 Cressida Grande
Both in no cooler and cooler configurations (ie 4 possibilities).
Not to mention the rest of the fleet of JZ and UZ powered cressidas.

Think I'd rather go by what the driving experience is like rather than lines on a piece of paper created at WOT on an engine dyno, but that's just me

The data backs up what my driving impressions of *IDENTICAL* vehicles are. The data on the VVTi 1UZ also backs up my driving impression, but that's a completely different kettle of fish.

Everybody knows that a sudden increase in push in the seat is a result of a sudden large increase in torque. It does not, however, indicate the car is faster - it just feels faster. Area under the curve is what transfers into kinetic energy.

In terms of transient response, you have VVTi versus more displacement through a smaller turbo - there is no question a VVTi 2JZ is the best of both worlds, but given the two options available at the comparable cost my DRIVING IMPRESSIONS (backed up by data) would lead me to choose the 2JZ.
FWIW the 1UZ provides better transient response than either JZ but once again that's a different kettle of fish.

That's why I think the VVTi 1J is a better fit. In stock form it's just nicer to drive around than the 2J under conditions (ie; stop/start, off boost

There is no question on which engine has more torque off boost.

Seriously Matt, you've driven 1 2JZ and it appears you instantly hated it...

Mos.

[whatthe?]

Edit - CBF. Toyota obviously should have stopped at the 92 2JZGTE

[Mos]

I wonder if the VVTi and higher static comp aids low rpm response?

Undoubtedly, but you can't ignore the physics of pushing more gas through something smaller, which is what you seem to be doing.

Once again you're not thinking about the OP's intended application

Oh but I am - out of you and me, who do you think spends more time off boost, at low throttle openings??

Mos.

[dkabab]

since we are more towards torque here, which i like to see. what sort of torque increases are most people seeing with their boosted cars, or do most people not really know.

for example stock engine is 206kw with 375nm - modded 250kw with xxxNM?

[The Real Roadrunner]

That's right, I forgot that the JZX100 was such a lightweight vehicle.

Silly me

I wonder if the VVTi and higher static comp aids low rpm response? Once again you're not thinking about the OP's intended application

ummmm, i was replying to the OP saying that the 2jz is the better way to go for a large vehicle, probly the same reason toyota put a 2JZ in the aristo

who needs low rpm response when the engine is on boost with 20% throttle?


and yes they should stop producing the ghey series of 1jz's