Building up a mean F head

[Ben Wilson]

I thought it was 1/3, but I read 1/4 earlier today in this article. Good article BTW..

That's the point of diminishing returns, as a rule you won't get any more flow above this lift.

Bigger valves will work at less than max lift, but only if the port is up to it.

[oldcorollas]

i guess the other thing is... if bigger lift doesn't reduce the flow, then you can use a larger lift for a given total duration to have more area under the curve so to speak...
ie, get the lift open to max flow faster (be it 1/4 or 1/3) and have it open there for longer.. and stiull have a spring friendly shape on the cam lobe

[abently]

Huh, your flow figures are for one specific example, and CANNOT be generalised. Sure it might be fine for a 1.6L with 10.5:1 CR, but for anything other than a specific example it is utter garbage. Also remember your dynamic CR will affect the flow rates you want so that you can optimise the operating band of the engine.

That is the only generalisation I follow. I did say 150-155cfm per Inch^2 of Area at the choke point @ 28" of Pressure. So the target cfm for each different size port is different.......

That generalisation works out backwards to an optimum Port velocity of 350Fps @ the centre of the Port.

On an F1 style Port, it can cope with velocities closer to 400Fps without any negative effects on Flow.

This changes when you have Ports with very tight short side Port radius's which need lower Port velocity to not choke the turn area.

[abently]

To work out max lift, you really need to get it on a Flow bench with the Intake manifold or ITB's connected and run it to see how much lift you can run before it drops off.

3SGE can go 13mm on Factory Head and Intake.

[Billzilla]

Okay I've cancelled my conrod order and will be going with a different company.
I checked back as far as I could with my current chequebook and it seems that it's at least 18 months since I ordered the rods.
The company is PAR in Sydney, and they will never get a cent from me again.
I know they make good gear and some people get their stuff much faster, but I'm not going to waste any more time waiting.
I also know of another racer that's been waiting nearly two years for another specially-made part to arrive.
Up to you what you want to do guys, but I will never recommend or use them again.

[abently]

Okay I've cancelled my conrod order and will be going with a different company.
I checked back as far as I could with my current chequebook and it seems that it's at least 18 months since I ordered the rods.
The company is PAR in Sydney, and they will never get a cent from me again.
I know they make good gear and some people get their stuff much faster, but I'm not going to waste any more time waiting.
I also know of another racer that's been waiting nearly two years for another specially-made part to arrive.
Up to you what you want to do guys, but I will never recommend or use them again.

There's a US Company which had there Aluminum conrods banned (min Conrod wieght increased & composite materials banned, after only Team to use them dominated the season) by IHRA and NHRA if your interested in contacting, I can PM you there details.

415grams for a 6" Pro stock conrod.

Waiting period is about 9-12months and that's on the extreme end.

[oldcorollas]

there is a lot of misinformation about those rods on "teh intahnet" from being a "polymer aluminium composite" to "altering the molecular structure of aluminium"
and his phone number is published in a few forums
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20040107794.html

basically, it is an anodised surface with polymer filling the voids of the honeycomb pores formed during anodising. the rod does not run a bearing.
it is not a composite in the true sense of the word, it is a surface treatment.

[RobertoX]

Interesting thread, subscribes...


Also, it looks like bubbles has spent some time away and and done some reading on the interweb

[abently]

there is a lot of misinformation about those rods on "teh intahnet" from being a "polymer aluminium composite" to "altering the molecular structure of aluminium"
and his phone number is published in a few forums
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20040107794.html

basically, it is an anodised surface with polymer filling the voids of the honeycomb pores formed during anodising. the rod does not run a bearing.
it is not a composite in the true sense of the word, it is a surface treatment.

Regardless of how its made, please note there is various treatments/structures applied/defined depending on your needs, which is why the price ranges from $1500US- $2400US for a set of 8. Won't be automatically half that price for a set of 4 ofcourse.....

The business went back to its base product for a year to re-coop the losses after the Pro-Stock conrods he had stockpiled were then banned..... and now is dealing with a shortage of material supply due to Aerospace consumption..... hence the delays.



But if you really want to be ahead of the times, HSM70+KSX material will hit the F1 scene next year, allowing even lighter / same strength Conrods.

[oldcorollas]

Regardless of how its made, please note there is various treatments/structures applied/defined depending on your needs, which is why the price ranges from $1500US- $2400US for a set of 8. Won't be automatically half that price for a set of 4 ofcourse.....

The business went back to its base product for a year to re-coop the losses after the Pro-Stock conrods he had stockpiled were then banned..... and now is dealing with a shortage of material supply due to Aerospace consumption..... hence the delays.

funny, i read those same phrases on various forums

what makes you think his hard anodised rods are better than anyone elses hard anodised rods?

the metallurgical explanations thrown around on forums (from ppl that supposedly know him) are, for the most part, bogus

http://cache.zoominfo.com/CachedPage...lastName=Jager

Optimal thickness, according to Jager, is approximately three thousandths of an inch of pure alumina, with one to two thousandths of transitional layer from the alumina to the aluminum. In order to grow the ceramic, all the non-aluminum alloying agents are removed from the surface of the metal, and then an electro-chemical thermal process turns the remaining aluminum into alumina, or aluminum oxide, in a specific, and top-secret, configuration.

ie, hard anodising

whatever way you spin it, it is NOT an aluminium ceramic composite..

http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Jager...397468628.aspx

btw, i also know and work with people from Oak Ridge National Labs.. maybe i should ask them about these famous rods? i "grow" alumina too

The core aluminum we use in our rods is no less than 90.000 PSI in strength. In comparison, the compression yield strength of alumina, in its most basic phase transformation, is 390,000 PSI, or more than four times as strong in compression. By creating that barrier in the wristpin area, for example, and allowing that strong alumina to transmit that load into a much larger dispersive area of aluminum underneath it, you can effectively bypass the effects of fatigue.

so he's using 620MPa alloy, and anodising...
his assertions are misguided. his science doesn't make sense. the thin alumina does not assist with the load bearing of the rod.
he fails to mention that in tension, it will crack.

basically. i cbf debunking every point, but, although he may have a good product, it is not better than other rods made from same material.

oh, except one point... he thinks because he has teflon on the wristpin bore, it doesn't need oil? oh my

basically, good product, surrounded by snakeoil

[abently]

At the end of the day, I stick to F1 tried and true technology unless I see these connecting rods coming onto production Engines since they claimed testing it to a 1million cycle life (100,000K equivalent) and being approached from an Engine manufacturer.

[oldcorollas]

i give up
you don't have access to F1 technology for rods, and if these "special" rods made it to production (due to their questionable fatigue life), then it would be for cost reasons, not performance.

[abently]

But if you really want to be ahead of the times, HSM70+KSX material will hit the F1 scene next year, allowing even lighter / same strength Conrods.

This is powdered steel composition. Superior to C70 and 36MnVS4. You can read up on them if you like.

[oldcorollas]

This is powdered steel composition. Superior to C70 and 36MnVS4. You can read up on them if you like.

powder metallurgy is already being used in rods in production engines

and when was the last time STEEL rods were used in F1 engines?

36MnVS4 is mahles STEEL forged rod material,

and.. ahem.. don't you mean Metaldynes HS170M+KSX? are you just pulling these names from random websites? you really think F1 will go from titanium to powder forged steel rods??

http://www.engine-expo.com/07ex_conf...day_1/ilia.pdf

[30psi 4agte]

Is it just me ??? ......or has this thread taken a wrong turn somewhere...