2ZZ-GE into RWD?

[psychofox]

Here is my 2c on the 2ZZ-GE motor.

I did a bottom end in a 2zzge (2000 Celica) in 2004. Around a right hand turn it oil surged and spun the big ends on #1 & #4 rods. It lightly damaged the rods, crank and bores. Problem with the 2zz bottom end is that it uses Metal Matrix bores with almost no metal between the bores. This means you CANNOT over bore them, even 0.25mm. Outcome was a new short motor required at great cost to Management!!

Here's some photos of the dead block - note the tiny amount of metal between the bores, and the change from the A-series blocks to an open deck.





I've got some more photos of the motor in a dissasembled state if anyone is interested.

I like the character of the motor - I previously had a AE93 SX Seca and loved the 4AGE Smallport, the 2ZZ goes a lot harder than that does. Admittedly it feels a bit breatless at about 5000-6000 revs, before the VVTLi kicks in, but it really goes well on the 292deg cam. It certainly goes harder than my 20V in my AE86.

I also had a computer failure about 10,000kms ago, and since the newer computer was installed, it doesn't hit lift as hard as it did initially and I think the newer computers produce a little less power.

[off-road]

I've heard of a 2zz that was being hot rodded breaking a valve head off on an engine
dyno.Not sure what revs it was pulling at the time.Joshstix have the valve failures you
know of been due to over reving or can you or any one else offer any other explanation
for valve failure.
Interested to know as this motor is still being developedand and any information would be
appreciated.

[psychofox]

There have been a fair few reported failures in the USA with over revving (ie downshift 5->4 and hit 2nd) which primarilly damage the valve train (bends valves, etc). Talking to some engine builders the exhaust valves are really weak and you need to put stainless valves if you want to have any sustained high RPM operation.

I'm sure Colin Osborne (or his engine builder) could vouch for this as he ran a couple of ZZT231 Celicas (and won the class) at the Bathurst 24 hour when it was still running.

[oldcorollas]

changing the titanium valves to stainless will put a fair whack more load on valvesprings and require heavier springs = loss of some power.... (ie staino valve = twice as heavy, so forces =......)

[Sam_Q]

it comes standard with titanium valves?

the other thing I want to know, what is a metal matrix, like really with the bullcrap asside and just a technical explination

oh and what does one of these weigh compared to a 4age?

[Alchemist]

I'm curious if those people knocking the performance have actually ever been in a car with a 2ZZ in them...or just by going on hearsay fro mates etc...

These engines are amazing...for a 1.8L that pack an incredible punch that brings a smile to any N/A drivers face. They are pretty quick before 6000RPM, but after, when the lift changed and starts taking effect these things absolutely scream(speed wise and engine noise), these sing at full noise, with stock exhaust sound great(if you are a fan of high revving N/A engines, of course it wouldn't be a V8 fans cup of tea).

The fact that with mild mods can make more power than numerous SC and larger N/A engines is impressive.

Now they are no Turbo engine, and don't have the torque of a V8, but for what they are, they are very impressive.

I can't make any comments on reliability issues, although from the above posts it does seem that driver error plays a large part in it, but from driving, my mates and my Dads Celica with a 2ZZ I'm very impressed.

*edit* thanks BlueStivo for Lift Vs VVTi change....

[oldcorollas]

it comes standard with titanium valves?
the other thing I want to know, what is a metal matrix, like really with the bullcrap asside and just a technical explination
oh and what does one of these weigh compared to a 4age?

i thought they did, but maybe i am remembering incorrectly....??? anyone know for sure?
i believe it is so tho.

metal matrix composite.
in a nutshell, it is like fibreglass, except the metal is the resin around the fibres. seriously.
typically it is done with light alloys (Al, Mg and even Ti) to increase their stiffness or hardness. in this case, what they are doing is increasing the hardness and stiffness of the bore at the cylinder surface. so what you have is an alloy block, but around the bore area, you have something like carbon or other ceramic fibres or particles..

here is a thing on toyota Ti valve (apparently powder metllurgy made MMC with TiB particles) http://www.tytlabs.co.jp/english/rev...ab_furuta.html

list of articles from toyota R&D labs... polymer electrolyte fuel cells in 1994!

some stuff not much http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elis...ne/toyota.html

some applications of metal matrix composites.

the main problem is that often the metal does not like to "wet" the fibres, and you end up with a metal full of cracks since the particles have voids around them and also the ceramic fibre/particles are less dense than teh metal, so when it is molten, the fibres float to the surface... but with stirring and vibration and a few nifty methods, you can get it to work...

in the toyota block it's done so they can do it in a single step and reduce cylinder wall thickness. they could have used a cast iron liner, or could have coated just the surface (like by nitriding or whatever... i think porsche does that), but they opted for the newer and more interesting method of integrating a composite within the casting itself... neat

Cya, Stewart

ps, heres a nice basic scientific intro to them http://www.composites-by-design.com/metal-matrix.htm

[MR22ZZ]

These engines are amazing...for a 1.8L that pack an incredible punch that brings a smile to any N/A drivers face. They are pretty quick before 6000RPM, but after, when the VVT starts taking effect these things absolutely scream(speed wise and engine noise), these sing at full noise, with stock exhaust sound great(if you are a fan of high revving N/A engines, of course it wouldn't be a V8 fans cup of tea).

not to be finnicky but VVTi is always active, Lift is what activates above 6000RPM bring the higher degree lobes on song and a smile to everyones face

but the other points you raise are spot on

[MR22ZZ]

thought I'd bump this thread with this video

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...59391454&q=2zz

2ZZ into an MR2

[oldcorollas]

fark, thats nice
it totally changes note and noise when it kicks in!!!! sounds bloody angry!!
is that one runnign aftermarket management?

[MR22ZZ]

I would assume it had some aftermarket ECU as the standard ECU needs to operate with the matching key barrel. And the numbers produced, along with the time spent in Lift make it look like an Apexi PowerFC has been thrown in there. It also looked as though they were tuning something there between runs...

[turbo ke20]

i stumbled across a picture of a mk1 escort with a 2zzge and i think they where using the escort box. They used a custom made alloy bell housing. (looked preety trick)

As for aftermarket ecu's haltech's latest platinum sport 1000 and 2000 will run these engines taking control of the VVTLi but you would need a very exprienced tuner to tune.
im seriously considering doing a conversion to either a ke20, ke70 or maybe even keeping it fwd in a ae82 twinky with a haltech.

[Gavatron]

4 years...

[Cuts]

lol, uber bump.
there is a thread on here somewhere where someone is putting a 2zz into an escy

[Drew]

Was involved with a turbo sportivo project a long while ago that we ran an Autronic SM4 successfully,made 265kw at the wheels (built engine).

not sure about the haltech with the 2zz,
there was something odd with the crank & cam angle signals that made things difficult if i remember correctly.