The Tuning Talk Thread - Forced Induction EFI & JZ Tuning.

[thechuckster]

well that sort of sucks. i take it that for an NA motor it arbitrarily changes that load scale?

[JP]

yep, in the tuning setup page you define a maximum map value in KPA, the adap software then reconfigures the load scale to span between zero and the maximum value you define. You and also define a map RPM step size which basically just changes the maximum RPM you see. It's one of the main things I'd like to see changed for the E420C.

[JZA70 R]

Ah thats not too bad then, although i find it interesting that the software knows to give less load points in vacuum and more in boost. I mean thats pretty standard as the power fc does the same, but you said you can only specify a maximum kpa value, and the software plots the rest... At least the power fc you can change all load and rpm points, i actually shifted more cells into vacuum and took some from boost, but i also set a lower max load limit, i think it was over 24psi and i lowered it to 20 giving me more resolution to play with.

The above map has more rpm points than the power fc (29 vs 20) but less load points (16 vs 20)

I photoshopped the map to use psi in the load scale instead of kpa as its easier for me to work out whats going on.



Id say JP is right, those 11 and 8' cells are to stop idle from running away, the power fc's answer to this is to force 10' ignition timing when there is no TPS input. You can turn this off and you can also turn on ignition idle control which will slightly adjust timing from 10' depending on how smooth the engine is idling. eg, if the idle doesnt match your preset idle value it will pull or push timing until it does instead of openign and closing the iscv all the time.

With your map, having those low value's will effect off boost cruising but more so throttle response from idle. Like when you blip the throttle from idle, i would imagine it would be a bit lethargic....

Timing at high rpm and high boost seems to be ok, although timing at 22 psi is pretty low, id imagine thats soem form of overboost protection... what boost do you run anyway?

It looks like the tune is set for peak torque to be around 5000rpm, mines around 5500 so i guess thats pretty accurate.

See how the red zone increases with rpm even under vacuum? i know this is a general rule of thumb but i found that decreasing timing almost on a linear scale late into the revs under vacuum not only stops the motor from rattling when you free rev, but also helps build boost. I experimented with with this a bit as the stock map on the power fc had similar values and it just didnt like it. I ended up putting a lot of timing in off boost and at low rpm which increased engine response like crazy, increased torque off boost and made the car feel like it had a much bigger engine then it really did.

Apart from that the only other thing i can pick out is how erratic the transition is from one timing cell to the other. If you plotted that timing map into a line graph it would be all over the shop. Key is to make it smooooooth.

Cheers.


edit

heres my timing map for comparison, the load scale is almost identical, as is the rpm scale so you can compare by eye easily...

[1JZ-Rolla]

With your map, having those low value's will effect off boost cruising but more so throttle response from idle. Like when you blip the throttle from idle, i would imagine it would be a bit lethargic....

Agreed. I wouldn't be too worried about hurting your motor on that tune, but can imagine as JZA said that it would feel a bit doggy down low without much advance in places.

Apart from that the only other thing i can pick out is how erratic the transition is from one timing cell to the other. If you plotted that timing map into a line graph it would be all over the shop. Key is to make it smooooooth.

To some extent yes....... but not entirely true for all cases. when tuning for max torque/min advance on the dyno, you can end up with some pretty agressive transition points depending on what the engine 'needs', particularly under vacuum & light load.

Cheers

[Jabtronic]

Cheers for the replies guys, you're pretty spot on with what you've gathered about the tune. It is an Adaptronic, is tuned for no ISCV, and does a pretty good job of idling even when cold. Response is a little laggy down low, but I'm happy to know I should be able to tune with this map before getting a proper tune done on a dyno eventually.

JP is right about the kPa plotting. The other strange thing about the Adaptronic is that when you change the RPM step, it doesn't interpolate the extra points, instead it adds the extra RPM steps to the right of the grid but leaves the grid squares/values unchanged.
E.g. My tune was originally in 500rpm increments (31x 500rpm = 15,500rpm max tunable) but since I have a ~7k rev limit I changed it to 250rpm (31x 250rpm = 7750rpm).
Basically my original 8000rpm column became 4000rpm, 4000rpm became 2000rpm etc.. everything from 4000rpm onwards was set to 0 and I had to copy the original columns over to the right and interpolate them myself. Same with the timing, I thought they would have fixed this in a firmware update by now

I've got the line graphs worked out and will aim to get the AFR curve smoother. Cheers guys.

[JZA70 R]

Power FC does the same. People ended up making excel spreadsheets that you enter your map in and desired values and it interpolates it for you. Im sure ive got one somewhere if you need it.

[Jabtronic]

Yeah the Adaptronic can interpolate rows, columns or square grids of data. It just meant I had to copy and paste each column over to the proper RPM value and then interpolate the empty column between each.

Would you be able to post up your spreadsheet that logs your AFR values please? I noticed some posts mentioning it but I can't seem to see it posted anywhere?

[JZA70 R]

Yeah the Adaptronic can interpolate rows, columns or square grids of data. It just meant I had to copy and paste each column over to the proper RPM value and then interpolate the empty column between each.

Would you be able to post up your spreadsheet that logs your AFR values please? I noticed some posts mentioning it but I can't seem to see it posted anywhere?

its in the first post, heres the link.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~toddwil...T/ultimate.xls

[oldeskewltoy]

What ECU & engine you have - FJO Racing - 4AGE smallport, with reversed smallport intake, 10.75 to 1, Web 577 cams, RC320cc low ohm injectors

How you are tuning that ecu - laptop

What wideband o2 and knock detection you use and how its intergrated with your ecu - no knock sensors as of yet, I'm using a fully integrated wideband - also FJO

Are you using a Dyno or street to tune, or both? - Initial break-in was with a dyno, but there was a small vacuum leak. This was found after the initial break-in, so all tuning since the leak was found has been road tuning

Are you tuning from blank maps or using a 'base map' or someone elses hard work - The company who did the initital tune had very crude initial maps - never did idle. The 2nd tuner(still before vacuum leak was identified) put in better control numbers - setting up percentages and how much to change what with how severe the other variables change, BUT that tuners ignition map was barely decypherable. I did send a request to the company I purchased the FJO from (Jackson Autosport in Canada), and they sent me a 3rd ign map, which I've been adjusting on since..


Your opinion on withholding tuning tips or secrets or even your own data and maps from persons and for what reasons? - insecure little sh_ts, if you ask me. Most are marketing themselves... only a few seem to UNDERSTAND what they are doing

What modifications you have done to your engine and how they effect your existing tune, or how they are have increased/decreased difficulty to perform further tuning - the engine isn't all that exotic... In fact, the car passed local emissions laws, and still gets over 30mpg on the highway

Your experience from tuning timing - peak timing: I've only dabbled here, I've got cast pistons still, I don't care to run them too lean... ESPECIALLY since the 2nd comp ring lands are slits(OEM type), and not, far superior, drilled holes. Im concerned about breaking the ring lands if she begins to ping. Timing under peak: Since the last map, I've only had to change a few #s...

Your experience from tuning fuel - self tuning so far... I have to give a thumbs up to the 2nd tuner... he thought out of the box and got the car to idle... AND pass emissions WITH a vacuum leak!!!!!

Your experience from tuning around knock - none as of yet

How intimate you are with your ecu, have you learnt every feature and what it does? - still learning all the features... to put it in proper perspective... I cut my teeth on points and carbs... I use computers in my daily life... but I'm no where near comfortable as of yet with dickering(radical tuning) with my system.


I was going to post a few links... but it seems FJO no longer is selling the 341b2 So here are some specs I captured when it was available

It appears that the FJO system is now the system offered by Holley!!! - http://www.holley.com/Index.asp?division=Holleyefi

[OnAll-FOUR]

Wolf EMS have updated their help file for the v500 on their website. It now reflects the v500 ecu and has some general information. Not sure if it is worh adding a link to on the first page?

Bottom of this page
http://www.wolfems.com/downloads/wolfv500/index.html

EDIT: Reading though it a little, it still isn't great but it is better than what they had before.

[oldeskewltoy]

I was going to post a few links... but it seems FJO no longer is selling the 341b2 So here are some specs I captured when it was available

It appears that the FJO system is now the system offered by Holley!!! - http://www.holley.com/Index.asp?division=Holleyefi

Here are some of the details...... http://www.streetlegaltv.com/forum/i...-efi-4449.html

[JP]

1. What ECU & engine you have: JZS161 2jzgte with GT3582R 0.82 rear, ID725cc injectors, 2nzfe ignition coils, controlled by Vipec V88

2. How you are tuning that ecu: Road tuning and dyno

3. What wideband o2 and knock detection you use and how its intergrated with your ecu: Tech Edge 2C0 with LX1 display, integrated to ECU using 0-5V analogue input to ECU. Vipec V88 has onboard closed-loop knock control which is wired to stock knock sensors.

4. Are you using a Dyno or street to tune, or both? Both, street tuned first on 7psi gate spring.

5. Are you tuning from blank maps or using a 'base map' or someone elses hard work: Started with Vipec vvti 2J base map.

6. Your opinion on withholding tuning tips or secrets or even your own data and maps from persons and for what reasons? I like to share the data, in my experience tuners who lock maps are trying to hide their poor work (the autronic in my forester was a good example of that)

7. What modifications you have done to your engine and how they effect your existing tune, or how they are have increased/decreased difficulty to perform further tuning: I've added a Ti 150psi fuel pressure sender to the rail and wired that to one of the spare analogue inputs on the ecu so I can have a 3D injector deadtime table. This helps to give a very stable injection map as the deadtime is dynamicly changed for voltage and fuel pressure.

8. Your experience from tuning timing: Make sure your ECU represents the correct physical timing by verifying with a timing light through the whole range before starting. Try to tune timing for MBT, need more time on the dyno to get this right. Use timing at with an almost closed idle valve to get the idle you want before enabling the idle valve control to make fine adjustments.

9. Your experience from tuning fuel: I use some fairly basic guides from efi101 along with proven target AFR maps as a start point, once on the dyno I try leaning or adding fuel to see how it effects torque/hp

10. Your experience from tuning around knock: Keep an eye on the vipec knock table and logs, closed loop knock can be configured to not re-introduce timing when knock is experienced so you can get an excellent representation of area's that need addressing.

11. How intimate you are with your ecu, have you learnt every feature and what it does? Fairly familiar, have been using the ECU's since 2008 in my daily drivers. Haven't explored all the features like launch control, traction control, antilag, 5D fuel/ignition control etc etc. I've only recently started using the mixture-map and it makes both street tuning and dyno tuning the fuel map a hell of a lot easier/faster.

Initial ignition map after first dyno session yesterday:


Had a clutch slipping issue trying to run higher boost but fairly happy with how the curve is turning out so far:

[thechuckster]

will be interesting to see how wilbo's 2J JZA80 compares to that (adaptronic, big single, sard injs, vvti)

[JP]

it's being done on the same dyno today, he was there yesterday while we were tuning mine, it should make a ton more power with the T78.

[thechuckster]

have they secured any loose-laying cats and small children in the area? that turbo is, well, how else do you put it, fucking huge


edit: seriously, did he talk about the heat soak issue he seemed to be having with AFRs?