300RWKW 4AGTE Turbocharger Selection

[dnegative]

With a shorter lifespan imo

Making 200+ kW in a few thousand RPM will make for a handful, sounds like fun

[trdee]

True, you would get halfway down the straight and be bouncing off the limiter. Lowering the diff ratio would be the solution though.

Brings up another matter, how much shit can a E series box take?

They can take much more power than what I will be putting through it, and this is not a gear ratio selection thread....

do you want 30psi@4500rpm? would be quite hard to control no?

altho you may not get full boost it'll still be spooling and giving decent up and go.

Yeah, it should still make 25ish by 5k which ought be more than enough. I am trying to size the turbo to work well with 25psi and pump fuel, but be able to handle up to a maximum of 30-something and 300rwkw on E85, if you get my meaning. By the looks of it on the E85 tune I will be looking at full boost around the 6000rpm mark. Which is not too bad I guess if I am still making decent boost at around the 4500 mark...

what abotu the BW(?) turbos? (ask Justen)
supposed to be more efficient than Garretts...

I would love to look at one of their EFR turbos, but they are still having production issues IIRC

With a shorter lifespan imo

Making 200+ kW in a few thousand RPM will make for a handful, sounds like fun

That's for me to worry about

[RONA]

If you are referring to the EFRs then if Vito ever wants this build to come to fruition then they are a bad idea. Issues with housing, wheels & a global back log of orders now 18 months long.

[jonathan yee]

i seem to remember there were already "fake BW turbo's" out. dunno if that caused the "issues" with housings etc?

but yeh, if you want it done sooner rather than never, i wouldn't worry about the BW's.

[dnegative]

I've seen a lot of fucked BW turbos and I honestly think the equivalent Garrett lasts longer, BW are a cheaper turbo and I think it shows. Even on new ones shaft play seems a bit sloppy

Although I'm talking lifespan measured in the thousands of hours here lol

[jonathan yee]

is that including their new efr series with fancy Ti wheels etc? i didn't think anyone has seen many of them at all which is 90% of the problem....hah

[trdee]

I think I've just been a bit too unrealistic with my expectations of peak boost on E85. A bit of fiddling sees the following

E85 tune
HP target = 400
Rev limit = 8500rpm
Expected peak power = 8500rpm
BSFC = 0.55
Peak power VE = 87%
Full boost (32ish-psi) = 6500rpm
Minimum boost = 3000pm
Atmospheric pressure = 14.7psi
intercooler pressure loss = 1.7psi

Pump fuel tune
HP target = 340
Rev limit = 8500rpm
Expected peak power = 8500rpm
BSFC = 0.55
Peak power VE = 87%
Full boost (25ish-psi) = 5500rpm
Minimum boost = 3000pm
Atmospheric pressure = 14.7psi
intercooler pressure loss = 1.7psi

These "tunes" line up together pretty closely, and they also align with my experiences with 4As in terms of how much boost I should be seeing at how many rpm. In either setup I ought to see about 17psi at 4500ish rpm, which is a realistic figure for a 4A, and would make for enough of a powerband to not be bogging down out of the corners on the track.

T04E 50 trim - "E85" and "Petrol" Tunes



T04E 57 Trim - "E85" and "Petrol" Tunes



GT2876R - "E85" and "Petrol" Tunes



GT3071R - "E85" and "Petrol" Tunes



GT3076R - "E85" and "Petrol" Tunes



edit; Fixed the petrol maps

looking at those tables I would say the T04E 50 trim or GT3071R would be the best bets no? With the GT3071R being the most ideal..

[oldcorollas]

going on eff% yup. they are both 74+ at max boost and still reasonable efficiency on the way up.

much difference in the size and inertia of the wheels of both of those?

[trdee]

I have been trying to get details on the turbonetics T04E 50 trim to compare to the GT3071R to do exactly that but details seem a bit scant on their website....

http://www.turboneticsinc.com/t3-t4e_turbochargers

[MRMOPARMAN]

holset HX35 perhaps?

lots of 4cyl guys use them in the states.

[trdee]

those things are fucking huge though arent they? plus servicability etc. who sells holset turbos round here? every man and his dog can sell/rebuild a garrett...

[RONA]

i seem to remember there were already "fake BW turbo's" out. dunno if that caused the "issues" with housings etc?

but yeh, if you want it done sooner rather than never, i wouldn't worry about the BW's.

No Borg Warner has failed to build the EFR due to issues with tooling up now 2 suppliers to make the rear housing for the EFRs. Less then 50% pass rate for Quality assurance on first run then even more fail after machining resulting in an 18 month backlog for a product. EFRs are also physically massive turbos, are internal gate unless you get the T4 split rear housing which is no longer available on many models due to eliminating some of the product range to reduce issues with manufacturing. I'd say Vito is atleast looking to recycle his current manifold in the new setup so the Borg Warner really wouldn't be to useful even if you could actually buy one.

[NME308]

That squirrel performance calculator is not entirely accurate.
I say that because it does not in any way accuratly predict my 3T turbo engine with the BWS200 turbo. Neither does it precict my 350 chev twin turbo...

Their basis assumption for your 4A engine is 87% VE at full boost however at full boost an engine is usually well over 100% VE!

Try punching in the following in the S200 map: 300hp (270rwhp should be close to 300 at the fly(?)) - 12.5:1 AFR - 6000RPM peak power - 6000RPM redline - 0.6 BSFC - and the usual pumping loss and atmospheric reference.

To actually make the results mirror my dyno sheet you need to put in 120% VE - OR the BSFC needs to be dropped to 0.45 - OR some other combination of those numbers all of which are supposedly not possible in an ancient 2 valve pushrod engine according to conventional wisdom.
Now for fun try and make it all line up making peak power at 4000rpm which it does now with the blocked turbine scroll!
The exact same set of issues are present when using the Garrett instructions i.e. you have to use figures which are not commonly associated with ancient technology. The 350 chev twin turbo also needed much the same inputs to make the figures match our dyno results.
To back that up even further the results from Ford XR6 turbo engines i.e. power produced from given boost are spectacular by comparison to what either of my two engines can do so modern technology is definatly better!

My point is you have a much more efficient multi valve head there than mine and those figures that website is giving you do not necessarily accuratly reflect your engine needs.

Are there some people out there with known 4A dyno results who can pipe up with figures to help match up properly???

Cheers,
Jason

[MRMOPARMAN]

holsets are easier to get parts/servicing than you would think.

they are used on lots of diesel/industrial motors used world wide, so one would assume you could get parts here. GCG at least would work on them.

and kits are next to nothing on ebay.

[trdee]

ive seen a 4AGTE with a more or less stock 8.9:1 gze bottom end mated to a stock blacktop head make 220-something kw at 17psi so yeah as i said earlier the guide is not entirely accurate. i was also wondering about the VE figures as my fuel map in my ecu shows figures well above 100% also my engine is currently making 180rwkw on 17psi with an old tired stock 8:1 gze motor and head. new engine will have cams, smallport head, rev to 8500 blah blah blah so should make more power per PSI

might have a bit more of a play with this later, for now i am required elsewhere