Aftermarket Engine Management - Burning Questions

[SilverGhost]

Most people use either the LM1 (or LC1) or the TechEdge WBO2 (http://www.wbo2.com) ones.

Prepare for ~$400+

Microtech can display straight from the sensor, but you have to buy the sensor (few hundred) have the ecu programmed to do it ($50 I think) and then use the Microtech Dash to display without a laptop ($500)

so ecu's that can display an a/f reading wil only do it with their own hardware. makes sense. I think with most dump pipes they provide more that one port for an 02 sensor, one for the ECU, another for your sensor. Is that correct?

[LeeRoy]

isnt a lmabda meter and o2 sensor the same thing? I would have thought all a/m ECU's utilise a/f readings from a tuning point of view, in addition you said earlier that they most likely wont utilise a knock sensor either? seems a bit pedestrian for a unit that is supposed to be superior to my old l-jetronic system, or have i missed the point?

They use them for closed loop. However, a computer can run without one. A knock sensor is something i would not be throwing in the "not using this" pile.

[SilverGhost]

Agreed, i would have thought knock sensor to be a vital piece of equipment. Wouldnt be comfortable pushing a car without one

[LeeRoy]

Shit another Q. are there any ECU's that have integrated boost control, or is it just simpler to setup an external EBC?

As far as i see it all the hardware on my car is 16 y/o now, the wiring, sensors (bar ones ive replaced) dizzy etc. so I would want to replace as much as possible. IMO its like rebuilding a motor with an old HG, its bound to be the weak point.

In my case im looking for an ECU that has the following features

-take complete control of engine management (no piggyback)
-has all new engine loom
-Remove the dizzy in favour of coil packs
-Remove AFM in favour of MAP
-not too worried about a handset, (its a 'nice to have') but definitely one that has an output for a lappy and accompanying software
- Has enough outputs to control things like T-VIS (im assuming most ppl dont worry about EGR when they go aftermarket)
According to your replies things like coild packs and igniters etc come with certain ECU's

A Top Top computer will have a boost control feature but i havent seen one that can have it adjusted by a switch which most 2 stage boost controllers offer.

A full management system will have a wiring harness as they are generically designed and have the option for many sensors which are not always needed. You could also look into some plug and play computers like that of apexi and see if they do them for your car.

Most computers can ditch the dizzy for coils and ditch AFM for MAP.

Handsets are nothing you really need, except for power fc's wich need them for tuning. What is your specific need for a handset. You will gain more from actually downloading the info from a datalogger then looking at a gameboy. If you set it up right you won't need one, plus, not many hi-end computers have them.

Computers like Motec and Autronic can control T-VIS and so forth but your lower entry level computers often don't have this option. You couldn't use a V-TEC controller could you?

Coil packs and ignitors don't come with computers i don't think cause they are not needed in every application. However, i'm sure you could arrange that. Most computers come with the bare minimum but have options for extra sensors and other things like what your saying.

- LeeRoy

[mullett]

I can't find anything on the wiring diagram for a knock sensor on mine, that's an older EMS DualSport. *AFAIK* the only computer that ACTIVELY reads a knock sensor is an Autronic (that is, it does something about it when it senses knock). The only inputs on my wiring diagram are:

On-board MAP sensor
TPS
Crank angle sensor
Engine temp
Air temp
And the optional Lambda sensor (yep, samesame as 02 sensor)

I think newer, more $$ ECUs would have more optional inputs etc, maybe these can be programmed to work with knock sensor?

RM.

[CrUZida]

*AFAIK* the only computer that ACTIVELY reads a knock sensor is an Autronic.

Autronic doesn't even do this, they haven't released it yet.

Adaptronic, MoTeC, Link and a couple of others are the only ones that do.


Knock sensing is overrated if you ask me.
Providing you use quality fuel, have a cold air intake, and don't let the motor overheat it should never knock.

[SilverGhost]

Handsets are nothing you really need, except for power fc's wich need them for tuning. What is your specific need for a handset. You will gain more from actually downloading the info from a datalogger then looking at a gameboy. If you set it up right you won't need one, plus, not many hi-end computers have them.

Computers like Motec and Autronic can control T-VIS and so forth but your lower entry level computers often don't have this option. You couldn't use a V-TEC controller could you?

The only need I have for a handset is I was told that they are good for spotting errors in the motor. Kind of like a more comprehensive 'check engine' light if you will. can show things like a spike in intake temp, a spike in the knocking. But apart from that I would think if anything it would get in the way. I wouldnt make it part of my dash or anything, so if it cant do as i thought then i just wont bother.

As long as I have a way of accessing logs like you said.

A Top Top computer will have a boost control feature but i havent seen one that can have it adjusted by a switch which most 2 stage boost controllers offer.

Thats a good point I hadnt considered. Definitely going to an external EBC then, i like the in-cabin option for upping the boost

Autronic doesn't even do this, they haven't released it yet.

Adaptronic, MoTeC, Link and a couple of others are the only ones that do.


Knock sensing is overrated if you ask me.
Providing you use quality fuel, have a cold air intake, and don't let the motor overheat it should never knock.

I didnt realise so few ECU's utilised knock readings. I would have considered it vital. I know you can tune your comp to handle different intake temps etc. with different ignition timing, so in theory it shouldnt knock, but what about a dodgy batch of fuel despite buying the best? Ive gotten optimax before that has given me a few rattles. There would be no protection in that instance.

I havent had an a/m ECU before so im drawing on your experience, and probably in reality you never face that problem. But I cant get over the fact that factory ECU's have a modicum of reliability tuned into them, like toyotas running rich in full boost, and they still utilise knock control. So if you have your motor tuned for performance without knock control, it feels like ur burning the candle at both ends if you follow me.

[CrUZida]

I've heard of quite a few people getting bad batches of optimax, but very few getting a bad batch of ultimate.

That said, you should hear it knock straight away, and then just keep it off boost and go get some octane booster.

Depends on the boost you plan I suppose, if you plan on large boost then probably the knock control would be good for you.

Have a serious look at Adaptronic. Only downside is that it only has 3 ignition drivers, so you'd have to run wasted spark if you run coil packs.


As for factory ecu's, yes, they have a lot of safety built into them. This is because they are designed to tune a motor for 500,000km's without a rebuild (or so they hope), and they are designed to still work even when people do bad mods, like a pod filter that breathes in hot air, as well as good mods, like a freer flowing exhaust, or slightly upgrade cams.

To cover all these you need to have a very universal tune. To have such a tune, you will never get the best out of your motor, as the tune is far from optimised.
Just have a look at how much power people can get from the very simple SAFC's.

[CrUZida]

The other point I should make is that a road car/day-to-day driver should never be tuned with in an inch of its life.
So it should take a fair bit of badness to make it knock.

[JustCallMeOrlando]

Haha, fair bit of badness indeed He maketh the point though, it's not a race car, it should always have a little bit of give in the tuning because it'll come up against a wide variety of situations. Me personally, one of the reasons I chose the Adaptronic was for it's ability to read the knock sensors. Reading a knock sensor can be tricky because an engine bay is a noisy place and they're effectively just a microphone. What I like about the Adaptronic is, it can take a baseline figure for the noise level of the engine at each RPM and use that in its calculations for knock.

Microtech, Autronic, Adaptronic all do boost control. The last two of those are the only ones out of that 3 that do it any good. I'd say that other ECU's can do it as well. Me personally, I love the control I have using my eBoost2. External EBC definetly.

As the guys said, I wouldn't bother replacing any sensors. It's pretty uncommon for them to fail, and it's easy to check for them being within spec before you use them.

The confusion over the O2 sensors stems from the fact that they come in two types. The factory jobbies are simple narrowband sensors, which effectively act at a switch around 14.7:1 AFR. The reason most ECU's don't let you just plug in a wideband sensor, is to make them accurate they need to be kept in a constant temperature range, which requires a control circuit for their onboard heating element. Most ECU's don't have this control circuit.

On the plus side, with a properly calibrated knock sensor and O2 sensor, the Adaptronic can to a point tune itself. Once you're close, you can use the slow converge to make it do the final bit a lot slower. That's my plan anyway, but I have the bonus that I can start with a base tune from someone else.

[kingmick]

but seriously do even the latest ones detect pinging after 4 or 5000rpm? i have never used them on any motor with and i have always been under the opinion that the only work properly lower down in the revs because of the engine noise as the engine rises in revs? i dont know of anyone that uses them for high performance or race. but im sure the tech will catch up with noise filters and the like?

[JustCallMeOrlando]

I dunno, we'll see how effective it becomes once I've calibrated the outputs and the ECU to the engine.

[LeeRoy]

The only need I have for a handset is I was told that they are good for spotting errors in the motor. As long as I have a way of accessing logs like you said...

...I didnt realise so few ECU's utilised knock readings. I would have considered it vital. I know you can tune your comp to handle different intake temps etc. with different ignition timing, so in theory it shouldnt knock, but what about a dodgy batch of fuel despite buying the best? Ive gotten optimax before that has given me a few rattles. There would be no protection in that instance.

Theoretically you shouldn't need a handset as it should be tuned so there is some room for the chance you get shit fuel, drive through super desert temps or whatever. Plus, how often will you really look at it? when your driving? plus it wont tell you half as much as a laptop if you are serious about getting some decent info about the car. From personal experience a friend had a wolf 3d with a handset and it was only ever looked at at idle.

Thats why its probably a good idea to tune it on plain 95octane and then squeeze it fairly hard then run 98 all the time so you KNOW that it runs fine on shit fuel whereas if you tune it on 98 and then get shit 98 it may do some damage.

As for tuning to handle intake temps, computers have inbuilt formulas to work out stuff like this. Some computers utilise MAP, coolant temp, and RPM to actually calculate the combustion chamber air temp.

Besides this, when you tune it you will set all the parameters you want it to run with. Like fuel press, ign timing, dwell, all cam timing, A/F, and so on so the tune stays within these things so when tuning it is your knock sensor starts to detect pinging on a lean tune you can richen it a little and then set it to that.

Should it actually ping on the road, in most computers if not all i'm pretty sure there is an option for you to select what the computer does when this happens ie retard timing or dump fuel.

- LeeRoy

[CrUZida]

Should it actually ping on the road, in most computers if not all i'm pretty sure there is an option for you to select what the computer does when this happens ie retard timing or dump fuel.

The point made above is that there are very few ecu's that actively do anything with knock.

To the best of my knowledge, Microtech, Wolf, Autronic, Haltech, AEM EMS do not have any form of knock control (Autronic will when they finally release it).

MoTeC, Adaptronic and Link are the only ones I know that do.

[pilot]

AEM PnP ones have knock control:

Definable Knock Control
There's a reason why all new cars come with knock sensors and there is no reason not to use them. With the EMS, you can. User programmable knock thresholds and full control on the quantity of fuel to add and/or timing to retard, the EMS allows you unmatched ability to use these sensors to their full potential.

From here:
http://www.importperformance.com/aem/ems.html

"problem" with knock is that its characteristics vary a lot from engine to engine, so there is no such a thing as a "universal knock sensing device".