7AGTE Vicroads EPA compliance (factory management options)

[PrettyCoolWagon]

Old Corollas,
That Delco info is very interesting, ...heaps more reading to do.

[Duk]

Nothing stopping you from tuning a Nissan ECU with Nistune and then reprogramming the factory EPROM and soldering that back in. How are they going to know unless the person doing the looking is familiar with Toyota or Nissan ECUs?
The Delco stuff has better aftermarket support without it costing an arm and leg to buy Kalmaker. Search for real time tuning Delco ECUs.

[Hen]

I'm not sure if I'm missing the point here, but my understanding is that to get an engine conversion engineered (in Vic) you need to show that it will pass the relevant emissions standards and there are two ways of doing this. You can:

• use whatever management you like, do a full emissions test (closed room, including evap emissions and so on) and get it passed. However this is very hard and prohibitively expensive.
• use a factory motor with factory management as this is what Toyota got tested and passed back in the day (incidentally there is some gymnastics with 4AGZEs as they were never sold in the Australian market, but this has been done before and shouldn't be too tricky).

However a cobbled together collection of parts, even though they are factory parts, has no documentation to show that it meets the required standards once plugged into your 7AGTE. An engineer does have some leeway to decide that a modification **should** not affect the emissions. So he may decide that whatever setup you choose is "close enough" and sign off on it, but that is a matter for the engineer.

So a mix-n-match setup may do fine and fly under the radar, however from my interperetation of the rules this plan is just a step down the "put an aftermarket ECU in a factory box" road.

[SHEPPO3930]

what engineer have you spoken to? PM me if you want, i'd be interested to know.

you can get a car on aftermarket management engineered in victoria. as long as it passes the testing, it's OK. just need to find an engineer who is more reasonable.

keep up the good work, i have a soft spot for those wagons!

[PrettyCoolWagon]

Duk, ..haven't looked into it deeply yet, but on the surface of it a 3SGTE ECU may be a better candidate than Nistune ECU due to the nissan dizzy possibly being different, however I'm not ruling anything out. Thanks to everyone's input there's now a few options to try.

I'm still waiting on approval from MR2OC, so I can read up on some links covering the similarities and difference between 4AGZE & 3SGTE ECU's. Bookmarked a number of Delco sites too. Need more time to read..
**

Hen, you're not missing a thing, everything you've said is 100% correct.
In a nutshell because my engine isn't a factory variant of any kind, I have to pass emi$$ions testing. So I'm doing everything I can mechanically to provide a good emissions system.

What I need is a factory "looking" computer, that won't raise an eyebrow and will easily do the job of mixing AFR and burning fuel in an emissions friendly way in the combustion chamber throughout the entire rev range.

You are right about the 4AGZE too, because it wasn't an Australian delivered engine, technically it too should undergo full emissions testing and as I said to Duk, ...not ruling anything out so 'ABC' ECU inside Toyota ECU cover may be another option.
**

Sheppo
PM sent re: engineer.

Here's the edited email thread with engineer.
**

----- Original Message -----
From: Jed
To: engineer
Sent: Wednesday, 7 August, 2013 4:18:13 AM GMT +10:00 Canberra / Melbourne / Sydney
Subject: non engineered turbo - car for sale?


Hi Mr engineer,

I'm interested in a car currently advertised on ebay.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/200950071...84.m1438.l2649

I contacted the seller, he's confirmed it's had an engine conversion. Toyota 1.6L swapped for later model Toyota 1.6L of the same engine family.
It's also been fitted with a turbo and aftermarket ECU, but isn't engineered.

Here's some more info on it.
http://www.twincam.org/topic/25035-a...20v-silvertop/

I'm unfamiliar with engineering, could you please outline the parameters for compliance, process and cost as relating to this vehicle?

Best regards,
Jed
===

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2013 09:02:34 +0800
From: engineer
To: jed
Subject: Re: non engineered turbo - car for sale?

Jed,
The aftermarket turbo and ecm will not pass emissions regulations, unless the turbo manufacturer can supply a copy of a test report. So you would have to return the engine to standard condition to register it. The later model engine is no problem, provided it has all of the emissions control systems fitted - ecm, cat converter and O2 sensor.
Regards,
Mr engineer
===


----- Original Message -----
From: jed
To:mr engineer
Sent: Wednesday, 7 August, 2013 2:39:28 PM GMT +10:00 Canberra / Melbourne / Sydney
Subject: RE: non engineered turbo - car for sale?


Thanks Mr engineer,

I'm also working on the same make/model corolla 4wd and would like to use Toyota's 1.8L engine of the same engine family, so an 0.2L increase with turbo.
Understand compliance can be costly, .. still happy to do this as I do things by the book.

In the case of 2nd hand turbos where it may be difficult to acquire the turbo manufacturer's test report.

Is there any scope for the turbo to be tested by a VicRoads emmissions tester?

Best regards,
Jed
===

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2013 13:52:51 +0800
From: mr engineer
To: jed
Subject: Re: non engineered turbo - car for sale?

Emissions test costs $1500 with a 99% probability of failure, and no expertise is available to adjust to pass. Need to use a turbcharged production engine from an Australian car of same year model or later.
===

----- Original Message -----
From: jed
To:mr engineer
Sent: Thursday, 8 August, 2013 3:55:47 AM GMT +10:00 Canberra / Melbourne / Sydney
Subject: RE: non engineered turbo - car for sale?


Thanks Mr engineer

Rest assured, at $1500 I'll ensure I do what's necessary to pass before fronting up to a testing facility.

My wagon was built in 1990.
The turbocharged production engine from an Australian car you speak of would be the 1.8L 7AFE engine with IHI RHF4B turbo from the Toyota Corolla AE112R Sportivo as delivered to Australia in limited numbers(100) ...in 2001.

Seeing as it's virtually impossible to find a stock version of this engine, the original idea was to copy the 2001 engine except use the head from a 1.6L 4AGE engine from the Toyota Corolla AE92 Seca liftback which was produced and delivered to Australia in the same years as my wagon.
The ECM & loom would be from the Japanese market AE92 that used the 1.6L 4AGZE supercharged engine. (can't find info on what CC injectors the 2001 engine uses)

I understand using a different head (or other popular modifications) will change the volumetric efficiency and therefore affect emissions.


Am I correct in stating the pivotal issue is emissions compliance?

I've read, several modifications can be legally passed by the EPA providing they're endorsed by an approved Vicroads engineer,
AND
so long as the vehicle passes emissions testing.

Am I correct so far?


Best regards,
Jed
===


Yes, thats all correct Jed.

However, as soon as the engine is not a production Australian certified engine, it requires a test to demonstrate that it passes the emissions regulation. For a 1990 car, the regulation is ADR 37/00. All Australian cars from July 1988 meet this regulation. You need to utilise an unmodified engine from an Australian engine, complete with production ECM, catalytic converter, O2 sensor and vapour return lines.

A modified engine, or Japanese engine fitted with ustralian parts requires a test, and will probably fail.

The only mod the EPA will approve is an aftermarket air cleaner, or an aftermarket intercooler, not both. Any other mod requires a test to demontrate that the vehicle meets ADR 37/00.

Mr engineer

[oldcorollas]

99% probability of failure each time you take a test.. at $1500 each.. sounds expensive...
I get the idea he is trying to persuade you to choose an engine + it's stock systems that already has emissions approval?


by the book "Emissions test costs $1500 with a 99% probability of failure, and no expertise is available to adjust to pass." is the big issue. it's hard for OEM to pass that ADR?

since you don't have yearly inspections like NSW does, why not get 7AFTE, then swap to G head later?
otherwise, very very difficult to pass emission test.

[yoshimitsuspeed]

I decided to subscribe to follow the thread. Took a few days to get approved.

Going with the 7AFTE full engine and management does seem like it may eliminate some variables from the equation. As said earlier though this could cause problems if some big legal circumstances arose and they found out the car was not in the state it was in when it passed emissions.

From what I understand so far, the name of the game is to maintain the 14.7:1 stoichiometric air fuel ratio throughout the rev range.
So I need some basic tuning tools to do this.

You are missing the open loop part of the equation.
Once warmed up enough for the ECU to listen to the O2 sensor the ECU switches to closed loop mode where it is using the O2 as it's primary source to control fueling. It will stay in closed loop at idle and light to moderate load. In closed loop it uses the O2 sensor to stay as close as possible to 14.7:1. Under higher load it will switch into open loop and start to richen up the AFRs. It needs to switch into open loop because the AFRs need to go richer than the narrowband ECU can read. In this area it uses fueling maps combined with RPM AFM and TPS to predict what fueling is needed. In at least some ECUs (I can confirm this on the AFM GZE for sure) the closed loop O2 readings actually remap the open loop bins to some degree. What causes the switch into open loop is a combination of RPM and TPS/AFM. At lower RPM it takes a good bit of throttle to get it into open loop. On my GZE ECU I can be at 3000 RPM 2/3 throttle and full boost (7 PSI) and still be cruising at stoich. As a slight side note this is also when I see my highest EGTs. Once you get up into the higher RPM though it doesn't take much throttle at all to trip into open loop. You will also see AFRs change across that RPM range.
Toyota ECUs from this era run notoriously rich in open loop. Under mid RPM and moderately heavy load as it trips into open loop you should see in the 13.5-14:1 AFR range. By redline at WOT it's not uncommon to see 11.5-12.5:1.

As another member here mentioned the AFM seems to have surprisingly limited impact up in this area of the map.
On the MR2OC we always hypothesized that the 3SGTE AFM would lean out the AFRs. A bigger opening and bigger door should open less with a given amount of air passing through it.
I was very surprised when I put one on my car to see that it made it run very rich in low to mid load/RPM. I ended up needing to tighten the spring a lot just to lean it out to where it should be. At that point it behaved very well. Throughout all these changes though it had very little impact on the high load high RPM part of the map.

[PrettyCoolWagon]

Thanks Yoshi,
that's some great information there, ..very helpful. +rep 4U.

Old Corollas,
to run a 7AFTE, I'd have to use the factory delivered set up. Only 110 were delivered to Australia making them too difficult to find.
Also the 7AFE ECU was tweaked by Tom's Japan so the mapping was better suited to the additional boost.

The engineer also mentions vapour return lines.
I've been getting some good feedback on the 2nd gen 3SGTE ECU's ability to run a 7AGTE, ..and so I'm looking for a little vapour emissions canister that sits in the cam cover vapour return line. They're solenoid operated with a purge switch and would have to be compatible with whatever ECU I ended up using.

It's the item I mentioned to Hiro earlier.
"..Hiro:
It's function would be similar to a catch can but it's much smaller and looks to be valved, ..you can see it sitting right next to the dip-stick in this image.."
http://farm4.dealernet.com.au/stock/...336E178BD7.jpg

Here's the feedback I got from KO racing in the states regarding the use of a gen2 3SGTE ECU vs. 4AGZE ECU, in reference to running a 7AGTE.
"..Jed,

I would imagine the 4AGZE ecu could be made to work, but as with any system, you will need to run every sensor that 4AGZE ecu expects to see. It uses and airflow meter system so in theory even though the displacement may differ, it should compensate to an extent as it is measuring airflow. I don't know if you'll get to a point where the air flow meter versus engine rpm raises a flag in the ecu to put it "out of range", but that would remain to be seen. I know that I've turbocharged a 4AGZE that was running on the stock ecu and despite my recommendation to the customer to get a tunable computer, he never did and ended up blowing up the motor 3 or 4 times before selling it. Ultimately, a stand alone tuned engine managmenent system hidden the case of the stock ecu might be your best bet. Alternatively you may consider running the 3SGTE factory ecu and it's various sensors from a Gen 2 3SGTE engine as it also has an airflow meter setup (would look similar to the 4AGZE) and so would compensate to some extent to the actual air requirement of the motor. The AFM's are slightly adjustable in setting spring tension in their flapper door clock spring by openning the top of them, but it would be hard to disguise that this had been done.

As far as whatever ecu you decide to run, as long as all the "ins" and "outs" the ecu expects to see are there, it should function. As far as I know all Toyota fuel injected vehicles from the mid-80s through 1999 ran 24 tooth trigger systems, so you just need to get the proper signals from the distributor to the ecu for that and probably run the appropriate igniter for the ecu on the ignition side. Coolant temp and airflow meter also need to be present for the specific ecu as does a knock sensor.

These are the best ideas I can come up with.

Regards,

Kris
(2nd email)
Oh yeah, the 2nd gen 3sgte ecu expects there to be 440cc/min injectors present as well and the circuit needs to have about 8 ohms of resistance if memory serves (usually 2-2.5 ohms on the injector and 6-7 ohms on the resistor pack) as running too low of a resistance will burn out the drivers in the factory ecu. You will also need the appropriate oxygen sensor for the ecu you are running -- USDM 3sgte ecus ran 4 wire heated o2 sensors where JDM 3sgte ecus ran a single wire unheated o2 -- this affects the tune in as much as when the ecu decides it is ok to start paying attention to the readings of the o2 sensor. The heated o2 heats up quicker and therefore starts being read sooner. The JDM ecus also typically run fine on 91-92 octane we have in the states, but were calibrated, I believe, for higher octane than the USDM ecus.

Hope that helps.."

[PrettyCoolWagon]

I'm putting together a spread sheet that compares:

4AFE 4wd
AE101 4AGZE (and other 4agte turbo builds that used the factory GZE ECU)
AE112 7AFTE turbo
2nd gen' 3SGTE
and at this stage some conservative / speculative figures based on the averages of all the above, for my 7AGTE using all factory parts except the forged rods and AW11 MR2 3 puk ceramic clutch.

The spread sheet cross references:
Peak power
Torque
Redline
Compression ratio
Valve size
Valve angle
Cam lift duration, overlap
Boost method / factory psi (including type of turbo and other factory vehicles / 2L engines that use the same turbos - Nissan SR2ODET)
Boost control method and max psi
Map sensor bar rating
Intake/Exhaust port sizes
Injector size
Throttle body I.D.
Quarter mile times
Power to weight ratios
Fuel pump capacity
FPR type
Fuel rail bore I.D.
factory rev limits
Gearbox ratios
Ignition timing
etc.

It's incomplete at the moment. Still gathering data.
The first major thing I cam across was my compression ratio, estimated at 9.7:1
(Spool standard length rods with AE101 GZE 8.9:1 pistons, standard head gasket and an unknown skim done to the head)

The factory comp ratios for the 2L engines are:
8.5:1 for the SR20DET
8.8:1 for the 2nd gen' 3SGTE

The 1.8L AE112 Sportivo is:
9.5:1 7AFTE

So this made me rethink my original choice of turbo (T28)
Now looking at a brand new Garret T25BB. (and the acquisition of turbo manufacturers test report)

Thoughts are; use 2nd gen' 3SGTE loom, sensors & management. AFM is reportedly good at handling variances in boost. Not sure if this translates well to engine capacity, but I recall reading a Toyota Corolla E90 article where they were saying the car must be able to perform in extremes of heat and cold, which of course relates to barometric pressures and oxygen density. So on this basis (and in discussion with an auto electrician at TCCAV) it appears the 3SGTE ECU will be able to adjust to the 0.2L of capacity providing I'm using a new Toyota 4 wire O2 sensor.

If Vicroads want a non-programmable ECU, they'll get one. Things should go over a lot easier with an engineer if I can demonstrate it both on paper and in the car.

The adjustments for me are really a choice of:
head gasket thickness
Turbo (possibly the length of the waste gate rod and some bleeder tricks)
Spark plugs
Ignition timing

For entry-level track days, I can look at plug n play options for the 3SGTE, along with adjustable cams..

The T25BB is well suited to 1.8L and will spool up quick, which is what I want. This is a 80% daily / 20% track car - wagon - thingy LOL!
I have to investigate it's max psi level, without adding any kind of electronic boost controller.

Other considerations:
Bigger front discs and install of rear disc brakes.
Use Koni adjustable suspension.

Just thought I'd share where I'm at. Happy to consider any feedback or answer any questions.
Cheers.

[PrettyCoolWagon]

During cruise conditions, when at correct operating temperature (no additional cold engine fuel), yes, 14.7:1 is the AFR that gives the most complete burn of fuel and cleanest emissions.




I tried a 3SGTE AFM on my supercharged AW11 years ago and it wouldn't work without significant signal modification. In fact, I never kept it, I just returned to my Mazda AFM housing (same size the 3SGTE), with the original GZE circuit board in it and continued using my Jaycar Digital Fuel Adjuster. It was actually easier to use the DFA and the Trust Emanage Ultimate (which can modify load sensor signals but I only used it to intercept the injector signals) than get the EMU to correct the AFM's signal, but I only road tune

Remember that the fuel side of things is only half of what the load sensor does. It also has a huge influence on the ignition timing.
So if you put a bigger AFM on an engine, it will show a lower load signal to the ECU for a given air flow. Now you might be able to get slightly bigger injectors that flow near enough, to get the right fuel flow for the given lower injector open time, to allow the engine to run decently.
BUT(!!!) because the ECU will always be seeing a lower load than what is really happening, the ECU will deliver MORE advanced ignition timing. And that extra advance may be enough to cause severe knock!
This is why I suggest keeping sensors and ECU's together. Unless you are running out of sensor resolution (which will happen and does happen surprisingly early in the early AFM equipped GZE systems) and have a means of tuning the signal before it goes to the ECU (and even then, I'd only recommend an interceptor tuner like an Emanage Ultimate), you'll be opening up a can of worms.

Duk,
Now that I'm looking at using the complete gen 2 3sgte ECU and running gear, what do you think will be the effect of the AFM load, 430cc injectors uprated fuel-pump and other stock gen' 2 3SGTEparts on the 1.8L capacity? Let's say I was running with T25BB that maxed out at 9psi with an effective FMIC
My basic understanding of signal inputs are:
AFM senses volume of air coming in, followed by air intake temperature, TPS, map/boost signal, engine temps & rpm and O2 sensor
Based on these inputs the ECU can run the cooling fan, advance or retard ignition timing and also adjust injector signals.

and on top of all that I can use things like a wide band o2 sensor and air fuel gauge, boost gauge and ignition timing light etc. to tune to the correct parameters for both safe engine management and emissions.

Is that pretty much it or is there a lot more to it than that?

[knightrous]

I think you could save a lot of time/dollars by just sneaking an aftermarket ecu inside the factory case and utilizing the factory loom. Something like the Microsquirt module (low cost) is a simple option, or if you want to spend some cash, a MS3PRO module could be the ticket.

IMO, the path you are going with by hodge podging factory parts here and there will lead to an 80% solution which you can't adjust to get the final 20% (ie: you'll probably fail emissions).

I have a GC8 at home that is a similar frankenstein project, has a bigger turbo, runs a factory WRX ecu and STI injectors (25% bigger). It's fine down low but when it comes on boost, it goes silly rich (10:1). We decided to throw some E85 into it (You need around 30% more ethanol then petrol, so it sorta balances out the big injectors). This works great on full boost and WOT, it has a bunch more top end power. However when off boost and cruising under 3000 rpm, it's a little lean and hesitates on acceleration. Makes for a crappy daily experience on a car that isn't a brilliant daily to start with (grabby clutch)

All in all, it needs an ecu to sort it's problems and I think you are going to find the same problem.

[PrettyCoolWagon]

Thanks Knightrous. All opposition results in broader thinking and more research.

Granted an aftermarket ECU meets all needs, ..oh wait! ..not Vicroads..
Seriously though.. There'll be no sneaking and whether or not it's money/time saving isn't the focus.

The focus is just a nice conservative tune with the right fuel and boost level on the best factory parts available to get through the test.

To put it in perspective. Started in 2012, then shelved the project for a while. 3 other N/A projects to work on. Plenty of time to be self-reliant, keep learning, solve problems without relying on an aftermarket ECU.

Re: 80/20% opinions resulting in emissions failure - The real percentage difference here is 10% less cylinder volume.
The AFM adjust screw allows for a further 5% adjustment either way. So the ECU sees 5% less or more volume depending on which way the screw is turned, reducing the volume margin down to 5%

On that basis alone the ECU has re-learning margin of 5% between a 7AGTE and a 3SGTE.

Adjusting the AFM screw is a known mod' for 3SGTE's that don't run properly in really cold climates. It also affects idle and to a lesser degree ignition timing, however both of these can be further adjusted at the throttle and CAS. Of course, at this stage it's speculative, ..But the more refined plans become, the more evidence there is to stay the course.

In the GC8 example (unless there's more info we don't know) 3 things have been tried...
Different turbo, injectors & fuel.
A bigger turbo has been employed than what was originally designed for the engine. (How much bigger is unknown) Then larger injectors have been used to compensate and the end result was difficulty getting the fueling right at either end of the rev range - on/off boost, despite trying different fuel.
Unless there's a lot more to this example, it isn't really comparable with the comprehensive approach to the build in question.

As mentioned "..The T25BB is well suited to 1.8L capacity and will spool up quick.." As early as possible - circa 2000rpms or lower; staying on boost most of the time.

The thing with emissions testing is. They only have to be passed once.
There's a lot of things that go into optimal emissions that can be employed both permanently and on the day of testing.

E10 fuel and Isopropyl alcohol

Getting tested in summer temperatures

Choosing a cat converter that has proven well in Australian and European tests

Water to air intercooling
OK so I didn't mention W2A much earlier but it's now becoming a serious consideration.
A NSW engineer advised my friend who's doing a similar build to go with water to air for emissions.
I've copied and pasted these comments into my spread sheet.

"..Water to air cooling has major implications for both emissions and fuel economy at high engine loads. Saab has used water injection on some of their turbo cars, working at high loads in conjunction with leaner air/fuel ratios to reduce emissions output and improve fuel consumption..."

It remains to be seen whether or not a different item may need to be 'adjusted' like the AFM screw, map/boost sensor, wastegate pressure, FPR, injectors and so on, ..But getting the volume margin the ECU reads down to 5% and then tuning from there is an acceptable start.

[wilbo666]

Your last section regarding "water to air" sounds more like it is talking about water injection to me, not cooling the charged air output from the turbo charger with a water to air intercooler.

Water injection is quite different to a water to air intercooler.


Also while I do understand the need to crack down on emissions, I do find it somewhat disappointing that the cost for the person trying to do the right thing is pretty well prohibitive ($1500!). I mean if VW don't have to meet emissions, and Mitsubishi can lie about fuel economy it seems a bit unfair to make the rest of us play fair (Note this is a joke, for a number of reasons including one of which is that VW didn't break any emissions in Australia to my knowledge! )

Another thing to think about is that with $1500 you could be well on the way to putting in say a 2ZZ-GE, or if you want a turbo 4cyl a complete 3S-GTE, probably make more power as well as not have to worry about the emissions side of things at all!


I also find it interesting that you are willing to modify AFMs (bend springs etc, with is technically outside what the EPA allows), but putting a more capable, programmable engine ECU inside the factory engine ECU case crosses the line for you...
(That said if you want to explore the option of an Adaptronic in a factory Toyota 4A or whatever case let me know.... It would look 100% factory from the outside...)

Cheers
Wilbo

[Duk]

Duk,
Now that I'm looking at using the complete gen 2 3sgte ECU and running gear, what do you think will be the effect of the AFM load, 430cc injectors uprated fuel-pump and other stock gen' 2 3SGTEparts on the 1.8L capacity? Let's say I was running with T25BB that maxed out at 9psi with an effective FMIC
My basic understanding of signal inputs are:
AFM senses volume of air coming in, followed by air intake temperature, TPS, map/boost signal, engine temps & rpm and O2 sensor
Based on these inputs the ECU can run the cooling fan, advance or retard ignition timing and also adjust injector signals.

and on top of all that I can use things like a wide band o2 sensor and air fuel gauge, boost gauge and ignition timing light etc. to tune to the correct parameters for both safe engine management and emissions.

Is that pretty much it or is there a lot more to it than that?

Are those injectors the factory ones?
Giving it some thought and after reading that injector dead time/battery voltage correction for injectors is rather important, I'd suggest that you should be sticking with the standard injectors. The ECU's dead time correction values probably won't suit non standard injectors.
Consider using a regulated power supply that keeps the injector's power at a consistant voltage (normal car system voltage without any major electrical loads and at say 1500rpm). A Boost Converter power supply that regulates power to the injectors you want to use, would be something that could help there.

You need data.
Being able to log AFRs and plot them on a rev/load map would be a good start. And then being able to log EGT the same way would also help.
The mention of water injection is a good 1. Water injection does a great job of reducing exhaust gas temperatures and oxides of nitrogen are effected by EGTs.
Oxides of nitrogen (NOx) increase with excessively high EGTs.
BUT(!!!) something that must be mentioned, while water injection will reduce the inlet air temperature and the inlet air will be more dense, there will be very little if any extra air being inhaled by the engine because the density increase is because of the extra water. So using water injection to try and use up any excess fuel that is being pumped into the engine (running rich), is very unlikely. This would be shown with a wide band AFR meter. If you were running (say) a 10:1 AFR at full throttle without water injection, then chances are you'd still be running a 10:1 AFR with water injection.
Water injection would reduce EGTs and so NOx, but won't have much/any effect on CO or CO2 output.

[PrettyCoolWagon]

Your last section regarding "water to air" sounds more like it is talking about water injection to me, not cooling the charged air output from the turbo charger with a water to air intercooler.

Water injection is quite different to a water to air intercooler.


Also while I do understand the need to crack down on emissions, I do find it somewhat disappointing that the cost for the person trying to do the right thing is pretty well prohibitive ($1500!). I mean if VW don't have to meet emissions, and Mitsubishi can lie about fuel economy it seems a bit unfair to make the rest of us play fair (Note this is a joke, for a number of reasons including one of which is that VW didn't break any emissions in Australia to my knowledge! )

Another thing to think about is that with $1500 you could be well on the way to putting in say a 2ZZ-GE, or if you want a turbo 4cyl a complete 3S-GTE, probably make more power as well as not have to worry about the emissions side of things at all!


I also find it interesting that you are willing to modify AFMs (bend springs etc, with is technically outside what the EPA allows), but putting a more capable, programmable engine ECU inside the factory engine ECU case crosses the line for you...
(That said if you want to explore the option of an Adaptronic in a factory Toyota 4A or whatever case let me know.... It would look 100% factory from the outside...)

Cheers
Wilbo

You are correct, I was reading/thinking about that w2a and water/injection and confused the 2 when posting.. I know what thay are but late night posts generally end up in a brain fudge somewhere..
Not sure water injection would be allowed. But water to air intercooler is going to be a lot better in a broad range of climates than a standard fmic and keeping the engine cool 'all' the time is important both from an emissions point of view and personally.

I started building the block years ago (read complete noob at the time) then in the course of time the Vicroads implications became more clear.
Regarding the 3SGTE. I've seen photo's and write ups of what it takes to fit one in the AE95 engine bay. It's not pretty. I really like the 4A & 7A engine family and in particular the look of 16v 4age heads. That's what I want to see when I pop the bonnet. I think it's more in keeping with the chassis.