7AGTE Vicroads EPA compliance (factory management options)

[PrettyCoolWagon]

Has to be simple, ..has to work.

I've read the 4AGZE bigport loom doesn't have a knock sensor. Does that mean the ECU has no programming for knock detection and adjustment?

Just need to know my options.
The 7A block has knock sensor and there are individual knock sensors that can be fitted, such as:

http://tunertools.com/gizzmo-electro...ert-light.html

Is a wide band O2 sensor and AFR gauge legal so long as I mount the guage below the dash?

[Duk]

Has to be simple, ..has to work.

I wouln't use a TPS based enrichment approach in a turbo'd car. Additional injector enrichment is pretty damn crude at the best of times, but 1 based on TPS for a turbo'd engine is terrible. And it's not even variable flow, so the thing just dumps fuel in at a constant rate. The same approach monitoring an AFM or MAP sensor would be much better. But still crude and is still just constant rate fuel delivery!
And I still doubt you'll need it for reasonable levels of boost.

I've read the 4AGZE bigport loom doesn't have a knock sensor. Does that mean the ECU has no programming for knock detection and adjustment?

They do have a knock sensor, but the early system is pretty ancient and is apparently prone to false triggering. Have read that the 7MGTE knock sensor is better.

Just need to know my options.
The 7A block has knock sensor and there are individual knock sensors that can be fitted, such as:

http://tunertools.com/gizzmo-electro...ert-light.html

Is a wide band O2 sensor and AFR gauge legal so long as I mount the guage below the dash?

Interesting!
But(!) remember that a knock sensor and its noise filtration circuitry is developed to suit the characteristics of a particular engine block. 2 completely different engines will have different acoustic characteristics. My alloy block Alfa V6 will have very different acoustic characteristics to my iron block 7AFE engine (that will be turbo charged, jammed into my MR2 and run by the Adaptronic).
Now, people like Andy Wyatt from Adaptronic will tell us, and quite rightly so, that the human ear and brain can do a much better job of deciphering actual knock noise than most (certainly, 'basically cheap') electronic noise filtering systems.
So the approach that works extremely well is to fit knock sensors (which are just piezo-electric microphones) to the engine block in a similar/same way as a car manufacturer would do, send that signal via shielded audio cable to a decent little amplifier (might need a pre-amp too) and listen to the noise via some headphones. End result is (from what I've read), the best approach to detecting knock that you can create, short of having the ability to measure the pressure in the combustion chamber at massively high data logging resolution. Apparently you can hear knock this way, well in advance of when you'd hear it normally.
The K-Lite might be very useful, but until I'd compared it to the audio style system above, I'd never take it as being gospel.

[PrettyCoolWagon]

QUOTE:
"..I wouln't use a TPS based enrichment approach in a turbo'd car. Additional injector enrichment is pretty damn crude at the best of times, but 1 based on TPS for a turbo'd engine is terrible. And it's not even variable flow, so the thing just dumps fuel in at a constant rate.." END QUOTE

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by Throttle Position Sensor based approach.
EDIT: Ah...you mean the grunt box.

I just mean simple in terms of components.
TBH I don't know how I'm going to get a basic tune on this thing yet.. probably get a more experienced friend over when the time comes, have a few additional parts on hand so we can try different things, but it would be good to have at least some clue before I start y'know?

What about a rising rate fuel pressure regulator, could it compensate for lean fuel mixtures at higher revs and boost or is that just a band aid approach? Would bigger fuel pump and the 430cc injectors do the same job but better?

I've been reading up on audible knock sensor devices, the idea being to attempt an initial tune by using an air fuel ratio gauge and knock sensor.

Everything' subject to change once I start tuning, but..the rough idea atm is 9.4 CR, something a bit bigger than the G'T25, something similar to a T28, bigport GZE loom with AFM plus the grunt box for additional help.

[.T.]

My suggestion is you get an ae92 /ae101 map complete setup & set it up on the 7a motor & get it working correctly. You will need to use a new oxy sensor & a high metal content cat (most important - very expensive too at around $800) you will need both these to have a chance at passing emissions. You will probably also have to prove compliance of 4agze in vic as well (my wife had to do this with her ae93 when she got epa'd) unless you want to do a full emissions test (suggest you don't go down this path unless you have lost of money - I only know a couple of guys who have successfully passed epa testing & they were smarter than you & I & still needed more than one go to get it) if you are lucky you might get away with an idle & 1500rpm test

In reality I think I'd get your car engineered with a 4agze in it (pretty easy to do in vic with someone else's 4agze report) & then do the 7a bottom end & turbo conversion later

(Note: all free advice comes with a money back guarantee)

Toby

[trdee]

as per above. you are trying to bodge a solution up where a solution really doesnt exist. whatever way you try and swing it you are going to end up with a massively compromised setup

my advice is either build a more realistic engine combo for this thing, or forget about getting it registered...

[PrettyCoolWagon]

Hey Toby, thanks for the constructive advice, much appreciated.

Trdee, you keep offering opinion as opposed to technical info.

Guys. Stick to the thread title, yes I know it seems archaic building a 7AGTE and not being able to run it on decent management.
I didn't write the Victorian rules, I'm just just gearing up to have a fair crack at them.

I have a 4AGZE and won't be fitting it. I didn't build my 7AGTE just to give up when things get tough...
I've discussed the cost of EPA testing with the engineer and have a bit of money I'm willing to put on the line provided I'm well prepared which obviously is going to take some time & testing of my own.

I've looked into fueling tricks with E10 & Isopropyl.
Will do my tuning in the warmer months.
I've found research papers on late model Australian delivered cars, that passed emissions really well, including tougher euro standards. So I'll look to these vehicles for a cat converter, look at their emissions systems etc. - Yes of course I'll be fitting brand new 02 sensor...

Having said all that, ..I know that good tuning is what really determines the best burn in terms of good emissions.
The higher comp also helps with good emissions burn.

I get it that most people's first response will be judgmental towards what I'm trying to achieve cause it all seems so backyard-ish in the 1980's, ..people responding could take time to read my questions and address them with technical reason that'd be really helpful.
Thanks
Loads of 4AGTE guys tuned like this in the early days and maintained reliable set ups.
***

From what I understand so far, the name of the game is to maintain the 14.7:1 stoichiometric air fuel ratio throughout the rev range.
So I need some basic tuning tools to do this.

My current thoughts..
Fit AFR gauge
Fit visible/audible knock device
Fit Grunt box for lean conditions below 3500rpm
Fit HKS ignition booster
4 x "options" to test and try for high rev lean conditions. 1) 430cc injectors 2) upgrade fuel pump 3) RRFPR 4) combine all the options mentioned..
***

Talking with a factory 7AFTE owner this morning and getting familiar with his engine bay, I noticed what looked to be an oil and moisture separating device in the vacuum line between the cam covers and intake with an oil return line at it's base.
So I'll find out exactly what it was and fit something similar.

The owner estimated the factory turbo was on par with a Garrett T25 and that the torque was all done and dusted at 6000rpms. This would be more to do with the FE economy head than the small turbo.
The 7AFTE is said to boosts to 8psi

In comparison,
I'm using a ported/valve cut small-port head and custom turbo manifold that will have a higher volumetric efficiency than the factory 7AFTE head, plus a factory 4AGZE ECU will rev out to 7500rpms.
So, combined with a M-24 Garrett A/R .80 T25 it will yield more psi, ...but because of the 9.4:1 compression ratio, boost will still be low enough for a 4AGZE ECU to manage and still be within the turbos efficiency range.

Having viewed 7AFTE Sportivos FMIC and position I'm confident the brand new one I have from a Ssanyong will do the job fine.

This set up will have a nice clean (boring) factory look and be plenty for me on the street as it's still going to be a major power and torque increase above my 4wd wagon's little 1st gen 4AFE.
***

With the MAP GZE, I've read a few times about people having a stall issue around 5500rpms where the ECU pulls timing.

I think the bigport GZE would read boost better and the AFM can help with tuning. If it's not up to the task I'll try the 3SGTE AFM.
It's not just some random idea - I know people running 3SGTE AFM's on 4age 20v.
Do some research / read about it.
Running with the bigport GZE ECU will also give me the options of running all the HKS piggy back & GCC gear for a better tune once I've passed.

[PrettyCoolWagon]

A friend who races at Bathurst and is building an E85 4AGTE set up laid it out for me a bit more clearly.
Concerns seem to pivot around the difference in displacement from moving up to a 1.8L block, meaning the 1.6L ECU would struggle to manage the extra 0.2L on it's own.

Here's what he had to say:
QUOTE: "...I see your point and its valid (edit: re:9.4:1 CR & low boost), ..but you wont regret keeping the compression low if you do decide to do it.. im just having a hard time processing how the oem 1.6L ecu is gonna cope with a higher displacement and also a bit more manifold pressure with also a higher load being fulltime4x4.. i have quite a bit id like to talk to you about before you endevour on and put it together..
My main concern is going to be engine life with that setup without having the flexibility of a programmable computer to add fuel and drop the ignition timing, which is another main concern of mine..." END QUOTE.

Alternatively a guy from the states who runs this website and does a fair bit of his own mods, engineering and dyno tuning had this to say:
http://matrixgarage.com/content/4age-4agte-rough-draft
QUOTE:
"...Nice.
I think this should be pretty easy overall. I saw the comments about your compression. You might know but I am running 7 PSI at 11:1 compression and I am now a big fan of compression. 9.5:1 isn't even very high by today's standards. Only time I'd ever go less than that is if I was chasing crazy high HP.
Since you are AFM it should compensate pretty well on it's own.
You will definitely want a wideband to monitor AFRs. If that isn't enough then the 440s would probably be the next best move.
The 440s are too big to tune properly on the 4AGZE but the displacement increase of the 7A should be enough to take care of that. I am running 385s and they have been easy to dial in on the blacktop so I'm sure the 440s would probably be prefect on the 7A.
I am also running a 3SGTE AFM on my GZE ECU. To my surprise it actually made it run richer. I needed to tighten the spring quite a lot to get it dialed in but once I did it runs great with very acceptable AFRs. I saw you mention running a gruntbox. If you do that then you should be able to run a good bit of boost with this setup..."
END QUOTE.

I know the 4AGZE can't read wide band, so would that mean plumbing it in near the factory sensor 02 sensor and just connecting it up to an AFR gauge on the dash?

OK, so FWIW,
I'm going to broaden my options, ..look around and see if there were any late model 1.8L factory turbo cars that I could poach the ECU and loom from.

[oldcorollas]

for all that effort, why not get a MoTec locked?

[PrettyCoolWagon]

Thanks Old Corollas.
I had previously web searched for 'non-programmable ECU's but results were sh*t.
Didn't realise programmable ECU's could be locked. Still not sure if Vicroads will allow it, ..I've emailed an engineer.

Had a look around at other 1.8L turbo cars..
Audi A4 ($$) Nissan CA18DET (different dizzy set-up) etc. Discussed with experienced friend mentioned above and ended up coming back to the possibility of adapting a 3SGTE ECU & loom, ..would need to learn the differences between both engine management systems and the difference in 3SGTE generations. So anyone who's had experience with both 4AGZE & 3SGTE ECU & looms, feel free to fill me in on the specific differences.

Friend has also offered near new, under 20,000km factory cat converters from a commodore, ..not the best emissions car out there according to my research, ..but still good and can't argue with free stuff.

[Hiro]

Talking with a factory 7AFTE owner this morning and getting familiar with his engine bay, I noticed what looked to be an oil and moisture separating device in the vacuum line between the cam covers and intake with an oil return line at it's base.
So I'll find out exactly what it was and fit something similar.

Catch can?

Don't get too familiar with the engine bay though, the factory intercooler pipe routing is about as bad as you can get on a factory car (goes halfway around the world just to retain the factory airbox, throttle and intake manifold)

[Duk]

Something I forgot to mention.
When I put the guts out of my original GZE AFM into a bigger housing, I used a Jaycar Digital Fuel Adjuster. When I set up the DFA, I used a wide band AFR meter (as you would/should). But 1 thing I found is that changing AFM signal had NO EFFECT on AFRs once the supercharger was switched on!
Reducing the signal would not make the AFR any leaner and these things run rich.
The SC switch on point was determined by AFM output and probably also TPS too. With the AFM sending to 'high' (AFM uses a lower voltage to show a higher load) signal, the SC could be basically switched on all of the time. The car ran like shit, too, being heaps to rich and (ignition) retarded.

So on that note, that the AFM has no effect on AFRs once the SC is switched on, I think it is VERY fair to say that the load sensing is then determined by the TPS.
I really do think that the AFM GZE setup would be a bad choice for running a turbo'd engine. Me thinks you could well have a nasty combination of enough air flow thru the AFM to get onto boost, while still at a low throttle angle and suffer a potential lean AFR condition. The relationship between throttle position and air flow in a turbo engine is no where near as constant as throttle position and air flow, on a supercharged engine.

[Valkyrie]

I'd look at a late model MAP 4AGZE setup. The AFM ECU is for an engine with 8:1 compression. The MAP engines were 8.8:1. I have seen a few small port 4AGZE's with either S14/S15 or TD04L (WRX) turbos run well with the smallport MAP ecu.

The other option is adapting CA18DET/SR20DET gear and tuning it through a Nistune. One of the workshops had a turboed NA 2JZ put out over 400rwkw with E85 and a Nistune.

You will want a factory cat of something as new as possible. I have been told RX8 cats are good for emissions, but I have no evidence one way or the other.

All I can say is good lucK!

[oldcorollas]

there are also older Delco (and newer?) ECU's from Holdens that can be reprogrammed, to give you a factory look.
they used to be all the rage until the tuning software started getting dongles.

yup, easier option is Nistune...
but then technically, you have a reprogrammed ECU, and that is not acceptable.

the spirit of the rules is that you use whole engine, emissions etc and control system as a unit, so the emissions are not affected.
by trying to dodge up a cobbled together system, you immediately blow that out of the water..
your choice of engine combination basically negates using other emissions tests as proof, although maybe 7AFTE ECu ($$$$/unobtanium?) could sneak in?

ask engineer/RTA about locked MoTec, OR, go the dodgy route with a programmable nissaids ECU or Delco, and pretend it is Toyota.. or resticker it.. or put guts into Toyota case...

or it will probably not pass emissions and run like shite


and yeah, get new cats. they are not expensive. there are single, dual, and triple cat systems. each cat is for a different part of the emission spectrum, so be careful which ones you get, or get the whole set from donor car.

[PrettyCoolWagon]

No word back from engineer yet on Locked Micro Tech. Will make follow up call if need be..

Hiro:
It's function would be similar to a catch can but it's much smaller and looks to be valved, ..you can see it sitting right next to the dip-stick in this image.
http://farm4.dealernet.com.au/stock/...336E178BD7.jpg
Just familiarizing myself with factory 7AFTE as a rough guide to making my set up look stock, definitely not copying the anaconda of all IC piping!
**

Duk:
I agree, ..it's starting to look like either of the 4AGZE ECU's aren't up to the job, ..but being a boost and EFI noob, I had to start the conversation somewhere...
**

Got verbal confirmation from Bathurst friend and later this email from matrixgarage in the states, advising of the similarities between 4AGZE & 3SGTE CAS & sensors.
QUOTE:
The more I think about it the more I like the idea of the 3SGTE ECU. It saves you from the low end leanout, needing to run a grunt box, and working with one of the most handicapped ECUs in the history of ECUs. Not that the 3SGTE ECU is that much better but it should be able to get you to at least 15 PSI without too much trouble.
He gave me a couple of links to MR2OC, stating they had most of the info I was looking for.
(I'll have to register to access the links.)
..followed by this comment:
I would probably go for the AFM ECU.
The GZE dizzy is electronically the same as the 3SGTE so you are set there. Most other things should be the same such as TPS, O2, water temp etc. Anything that's not you just steal off a 3SGTE.

Valkyrie:
Thanks for the comments, real interesting about the 2JZ Nistune! ..I'll keep my mind open. ..You may have missed my earlier comment re: scoring near new commodore cat converters for free.

Old Corollas:
Thanks, I'll follow up on the MR2 3SGTE links I just mentioned.. and if need be look into Delco and Holden ECU's Ieally a Toyota ECU will raise less eyebrows)
Which ADR rule says an ECU is not allowed to be reprogrammed?

Thanks to all..
I'm still working on my head gasket and turbo choice, will keep updating.
Public photos relating to this thread can be found in my signature facebook link.

[oldcorollas]

is vicroads adopting NCOP?

3.1.3 Aftermarket Engine-Management Computers
The use of aftermarket engine management computers (not OEM) does not guarantee compliance
with the relevant ADR unless that particular computer/engine combination has undergone ADR
emission testing and the evidence of compliance is available (refer to Code LT3). If no evidence is
available, the vehicle must be tested in accordance with the applicable ADRs.

and from LA3

ENGINE MODIFICATIONS
When engines are modified, by fitting turbochargers and/or superchargers (with or without
alternative components such as camshafts, carburettors and engine management systems), proof
of compliance with the relevant ADR is required (refer to Code LT3 Gaseous Emissions Test in
Section LT Test Procedures).

doesn't specifically say it has to be locked in NCOP.
I don't have access to ADR's atm