7AGTE Vicroads EPA compliance (factory management options)

**PrettyCoolWagon** · 12-05-2016, 01:05 AM

Cheers Wilbo

You're correct, I was reading/thinking about w2a and water/injection and looks like I put info about both into the same cell in my spread sheet.
Not sure water injection would be allowed(?) But water to air intercooler is going to be a lot better in a broad range of climates than a standard fmic and keeping the engine cool 'all' the time is important both from an emissions point of view and personally.

Re: 3SGTE option. I started building the block years ago (complete noob at the time) in the course of time the Vicroads implications became clearer. I can be a bit stubborn

and want to see it through. I've seen photo's and write ups of what it takes to fit a 3SGTE in the AE95 engine bay. It's not pretty. I really like the 4A & 7A engine family and in particular the look of 16v 4age heads. That's what I want to see when I pop the bonnet. It's more in keeping with the chassis.

Someone else mentioned the AFM spring tension and I mentioned the adjustable screw, which is clearly for 'adjusting' but TBH I'll certainly consider adjusting the spring rate in the AFM if it's a worthy mod. They get a bit tired and can be professionally 'reconditioned' anyway. It's hardly comparable to sneaking in a programmable ECU. Sure people from interstate have done this, but reading up on the EPA testing in Vic, they're on to those kind of sheenanigans. To do a real sneaky job you'd have to wire a programmable to the ECU plug from inside the case so it looks totally stock from outside, because that's the main thing they look for.

Going back a couple of years when I shelved this project I was looking into Vipec ECU's Can't remember if they can do a locked ECU that will be Vicroads compliant or not.

'Hen' mentioned Rowan Carter - local Vass approved engineer earlier in the thread. I looked up his credentials and it appears he'll be a good engineer to start with rather than the first one I tried.

Duk thanks,
..appreciate the technical knowledge. Find myself lacking the same level but learning.
You've given me a lot to read about.
They're not the factory injectors. They're brand new - same CC's as gen' 2 3SGTE
Happy to replace them with originals or try different injectors in general.

I've just done some 'googling' re: 'injector dead time, in depth articles on how ECU's work and boost converters.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with the boost converter controling the injectors because my 1st thought is the signal being sent to the injectors would need to vary with the oxygen content, heat range and rpms. Obviously I need to understand how these things work a lot better than what I do right now and that's what I'm here for, ..But it's more than I can get my head around tonight.

Also noticed these days there's affordable app's and dongles for data logging OBD1 & 2 on apple and android devices.
Namely:
'Torque' & 'TOYOBD1'

I'll have to read up / youtube more..
Thanks guys

**Hen** · 12-05-2016, 11:17 AM

I know the point of this thread is how to do it without cheating, but here's another option to sneak an aftermarket ECU in. Fit the factory ECU and plugs, then run the loom to nothing. Hide an aftermarket ECU and make a little circuit to flash the diagnostic light for no codes when the correct terminals in the diag plug are jumpered.

In general I tend to agree with Wilbo, that people would be much more likely to follow the rules if it wasn't so convoluted and expensive. A system similar to TUV in Germany would be nice, where aftermarket performance parts can, relatively simply I think, get an approval that means they are legal for road use.

Just remembered too that when speaking to an engineer a million years ago he said that since I had a 1983 chassis and was installing a 1990 engine, which met tighter emission standards that the original engine, there was some latitude in what modifications could be improved.

**Duk** · 12-05-2016, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by PrettyCoolWagon

I've just done some 'googling' re: 'injector dead time, in depth articles on how ECU's work and boost converters.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with the boost converter controling the injectors because my 1st thought is the signal being sent to the injectors would need to vary with the oxygen content, heat range and rpms. Obviously I need to understand how these things work a lot better than what I do right now and that's what I'm here for, ..But it's more than I can get my head around tonight.

The injector dead time correction is to allow the ECU to alter the injector open times as the electrical system's voltage changes. When the voltage goes down, the injector is slower to open (close time should be the same as it's defined by the injector's internal spring) and the injector dead time calibration allows for that.
The idea, and it is just an idea, would be to have a boost converter power supply that can supply a fixed voltage to the injectors and the ECU (so that the ECU see the voltage that goes to the injectors), almost regardless of what the car's electrical system voltage is at.
So you could potentially use your different injectors, ones that are scaled to suit your percentage reduction in engine capacity and then do the rudimentry tuning to get things running well, but provide a consistant voltage to the injectors and the ECU so that the ECU isn't trying to apply ded time corrections to the non standard injectors and (potentially) introduce weird little inconsistancies in the way the engine runs.

Maybe I'm overkilling the thinking about it, but Andy Wyatt of Adaptronic fame has spent quite a bit of time researching and testing it and getting deadly accurate injector specs from atleast 1 aftermarket injector manufacturer to help iron out the pesky little bugs that minor changes in system voltages do to the injector's behavior.

**wilbo666** · 12-05-2016, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by Duk

Andy Wyatt of Adaptronic fame has spent quite a bit of time researching and testing it and getting deadly accurate injector specs from atleast 1 aftermarket injector manufacturer to help iron out the pesky little bugs that minor changes in system voltages do to the injector's behavior.

And you could leverage this hard work, and not re-invent the wheel by putting an Adaptronic inside a 4AGE engine ECU case

I know what you're saying to do... but I'm pretty sure that there is a reason that no OEM manufacture runs a buck-boost power supply to provide a battery voltage independent / constant voltage power supply to the fuel injectors and engine ECU. Doing that would be a very long winded, cost inefficient, reliability decreasing way to solve a problem that really isn't a problem at all, as it can very easily be solved inside the engine ECU by setting the appropriate injector deadtime vs battery voltage (vs fuel pressure as if you want to get more accurate... pretty sure Vipec can do this?) values within the engine ECU...

It all keeps coming around to the fact that you are a fair bit outside the limits of what any stock management is likely to run the engine well (in my opinion anyway

)... and the solution to the problem really is adjustable engine management... or an engine that is completely stock to meet VIC Road's requirements...

Anyway talk to your new engineer and your options may increase...

Cheers
Wilbo

**PrettyCoolWagon** · 13-05-2016, 08:28 PM

I often joke.
This and other forums could be called the opinion section instead of the tech and conversion section.

Funny in this day and age there's an abreviation for In my Honest Opinon 'IMHO'
but BOMDE isn't something we see too often

Alright, I just made that up

(Based On My Direct Experience)

I've had some fun lately sifting through loads of forums for those little bits of gold to whack in my spread-sheets and notes, watching youtube and listening to podcast interviews with Andy from adaptronic where he does biefly mention deadtime/injectors thinking people will readily know this info and he was suprised to find out - a lot of people don't.. and that lead him onto new fields of R&D.

I thought this was useful info put forward by DUK given I purchased 430cc injectors marketed for 4AGZE's and now that I'm considering using 3SGTE management, the gen 2 ECU expects to see 440cc injectors, OR does it??

One of the more intersting things I've come across is a fairly powerful 7AGTE managed by a Honda P28 ECU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H72Hdzg8mq0

This is presumably based on the same mod's that can be found in the Honda ECU / 3SGTE thread here on Toymods
http://www.toymods.org.au/forums/thr...ine-management

One of the guys who appears to have pioneered the Honda ECU/Toyota engine movement said something along the lines of: "I've always been of the opinion that an ECU doesn't know what engine it is running" ..suggesting there's at least some room to move within carefully selected components. I'm nowhere near a definitive conclusion yet around what components I'm gonna spend money on, but I have gone as far as sussing out prices from people wrecking 3SGTE's for all the required running gear I'd be after..

..but the Honda ECU kinda gets back to Hens suggestion of using a Delco ECU.
Researching online tends to reveal 1 guy has done a Delco 3SGTE management system and quite a few of the MR2 guys have don various Honda ECU management options for the various generations of 3SGTE.

I've only found this one guy in the youtube link who's used a Honda ECU to manage a 7AGTE.
Unfortunately at this stage there's not a lot of info on how he set it up or got a base map and tuned it apart from using some spreadsheet software called 'CROME'

Whilst I don't have ready access to a dyno, I live with a guy who sells Bluechem/Powermax products.
https://www.facebook.com/bluechemaustralia/?fref=ts
A relatively new product to range to Australia. He's in touch with all sorts of automotive workshops everyday and rekons he should be able to sort out some dyno time by the time I figure out which way I'm gonna go and continue on with building it.

I'm gonna buy one of these TOYOBD1's and start playing with my daily 4AFE, As I like advancing the timing, have noticed the decelleration effects of different thickness of oils etc and my housemate's always bangin' on about running a full range of powermax treatments through it.
It'll be good practice for me to get used to data logging and tuning-in to the different effects various modificatons have.
http://jfbreton.blogspot.com.au/2014...t-engines.html

Some other interesting ideas were to get emission tested up in Sydney. Found this thread interesting, especially the mention of ceramic cat-converters.
http://www.4gtuner.com/topic/14167-e...hat-to-expect/

This weekends reading will focus on environmentally conscientious car lovers who have sought to make their beloved clunkers more emissions friendly. You never know where your gonna find the answers to your questions, but if you don't look you won't find.

**knightrous** · 16-05-2016, 08:46 AM

Injector dead times are dependant on the injector driver controlling them. Usually there is a rough spec from the supplier and you tune your ECU from there to get as close to the real value based on your ECU's injector drivers.

**wilbo666** · 17-05-2016, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by knightrous

Injector dead times are dependant on the injector driver controlling them. Usually there is a rough spec from the supplier and you tune your ECU from there to get as close to the real value based on your ECU's injector drivers.

If one is interested then there is also a number of other variables that effect injector deadtime...

e.g. Fuel pressure , fuel temperature / density, the actual temperature of the injector itself (I have a set of SARD 800cc side feed injectors and the dead time is VERY dependant on the engine bay / fuel injector temperature).

Cheers
Wilbo