300RWKW 4AGTE Turbocharger Selection

[Cuzzo]

Blacktop head is a wee bit different to a bogport.

ITBs, 5 valves per head, its black. Once you go black.......

[trdee]

yes indeed it is, i missed the part where he said it was a stock head...

and you never go back

[The Witzl]

i call shenanigans if this idea doesnt catch fire.

[SHEPPO3930]

Same dyno, another 4agte (this one with a ported and cammed ST20v head, and smaller but modified t28) made 236kw on 19psi maxing out 440's (unknown fuel pressure).

Maybe the dyno is a little happy, but having been in said cars, the power is about right.

If you want response, the 20v's VVT is worth it. Abovementioned 236kw 4agte gained 25kw in the midrange when the VVT was set up. Gain was measured by running car with VVT on then off. Went from a car with laggy light switch power delivery to something that was very nice to drive. I know u probably want to stay with the 16v, so this is probably useless info. I sold my small port head setup and have gone 20v 4agte due to how much better it is to drive.

[trdee]

definitely keen on 20v but maybe not till a bit later down the track...

[knightrous]

definitely keen on 20v but maybe not till a bit later down the track...

Will be cheaper to do it now instead of after you've bought bigger cams for a 16V pissed around with it and then decide to go 20V and invest more money for the good parts again.

This article gives some good insite into the awesomeness of a 20V 4AGE.
http://www.bobnorwood.com/The%20Fast...0in%20Utah.htm
600hp from a 1.5L de-stroked Silvertop 20V + 30-45psi of boost.

[Cuzzo]

Would drive like a pig though.

And if anyone would know what that's like, Vito would know.

[trdee]

Have read that article before. Wasn't planning on going 20v till a lonooog time down the track, along with a host of other associated mods (aka big engine build of bigness). I may still go 20v if i get a head cheap enough, or if i have a brain fart, or whatever, but that is a story for another topic

[Cuzzo]

I'd say do it on next build motor, and find me one too.

[30psi 4agte]

personal thought is..... 20V arent what everyone thinks. believe me have tested them against a decent big port head. Cuzzo Fit some O/S valves to a big port head and paint the R/C black... get my drift

[jfallen]

Hello All, seems this thread has been dug up. Hope you’re still shooting for +300RWkW Trdee, just don’t expect engine life to be beyond 50-hours of track work flogging a 4A to 450-500BHP. Now something that has been failed to be mentioned thus far (oddly) is that to make 300RWkW, you need to be making in the order of 340-360kW at the engine, accounting for drive train losses.

Now talking from personal experience, a GT2876R with a 0.64T2 rear housing wont net 300RWkW. I know this because on my CA18DET (about the closest Nisan analogy for a 4AGE) that has had everything under the sun done to it, made 250RWkW @20Psi @ 820RPM on AVGAS. Even the highest pressure wastegate canister wound all the way out wouldn’t hold more than 20Psi at the top of the rev range. Mind you it is the smoothest and most progressive 250RwkW on a 1.8L with a grunty 370Nm of torque at 550RPM.

My point being, that guys with SR20’s can’t get more than 250/260RWkW out of a 0.64-T2 internally gated rear end. People have got over the 300mark (just) on the 0.82-T2 rear end with GT2867R’s and GT2871R’s, but these are a significant exception, rather than the rule. And in these cases you’re starting to operate the turbo at or very near the choke line in a low efficiency area generating more heat that your intercooler has to deal with. Not ideal for long stints on the track.

Now in its most basic form a turbochargers maximum flow ‘can’ be considered limited by the diameter of the compressor inlet (the inducer.) Since this is the smallest point on the inlet system it, is therefore the bottle neck. (Stick with me hear Justin, if you’re reading.) Thus with the countless hours spent modelling turbochargers and doing research for my CA18DET I have come to this conclusion.

As a rule of thumb, in order to make a reliable/repeatable 300RWkW, you will need a turbocharger that has an inducer size of >54mm

Though in reality, a turbocharger with a 57mm diameter inducer will be a safer bet. People have got there smaller compressors, but as mentioned, they are the significant minority. Remember to get the best driving characteristics, you don’t want anything larger than absolutely necessary. Thus limiting your options further. Here’s a short list of sensible options, not just for a 4AGE, but any 4Cly with a 300RWkW goal: (old TO4B/E turbos emitted because they’re old and you deserve better)

Top of the list:
Garrett GTX3071R, Grab it with an internally gated 0.63T3 back end and if you don’t get over 300, you’ll be dam close. This will have the best drivability of the provided list.

The rest: (in no order)
Tomei M8270 (Great bolt on kit, I’ve got one of these and will have results Q1 next year, biggest T2 available. Value at $1250 to your door, built for SR20’s)
Garrett GT3076R (old faithful)
BW EFR7670 (if you can find one,)
Apexi RX6B TCW10 (if you can find one, expensive)
BW S200SX-D
Tomei M8265
Greddy T67
ATS upgrade for Mitsubishi EVO’s
Blitz K3-450R (included for completeness, but way overpriced)

Of course larger turbo will get you there as well but I suggest getting the smallest turbo that will achieve your goals. As always I encourage anyone looking at swapping their turbo to have a play and look with this.[url] It’s a spread sheet I’ve developed over the years, it’s a bit unruly but it also have a very complete Compressor Turbine Datasheet which I suspect you and others will find very helpful.

Hope the short list helps. On the math side you’ll need 50lbs/min of air, which will mean ~30Psi @ or near 8500RPM on the 1.6. You’ll want 290>270degree cams, adjustable exhaust cam gear will be worth it to bring the turbo on sooner and a bottom end built like a brick shithouse. I’d say go the 20V head (KEEP VVT(i) WORKING on the inlet) and use the quads along with a SamQ adapter for a GTiR plenum, OR custom inlet with a 76mm throttle.

Hope you've got deep pockets because you won’t be getting much change out of $10G’s

Regards
Jordan

P.S:
Oh if you want boost sooner and keep it cams legal, your only real option is Twin-charging. Even the SC14 would be sufficient, but intercooling will be more of an issue. Less so with E85.

[RONA]

Vito has a GTX3071r and is doing a 1.9 build now so it should be pretty damn responsive and shit in the 300rwkw goal and not explode. Could even do a GTX3076r with small rear housing, 0.82 is a bit laggy on my 3s but shits in the power figure with ease.

[JustenGT8]

Justin? What's worth sticking with?

[trdee]

Jordan, as Rona said I have long since made my selection of turbo and installed it. I went with the GTX3071R, 0.64 rear housing externally gated with a Tial MVS38. On my completely stock 8:1 bigport 4AGZE I am making full boost at a smidge over 4000rpm and the turbo is good for 600HP if i want to go that far (I have bought a set of ID2000s just in case ). I am now collecting parts for my 1.9L 7A stroker build (crank, rods, pistons etc have all been ordered and are scheduled to arrive jan), which will be using a blacktop head and VVT will be retained. But yeah, full boost at about 4200rpm from a GTX3071R on a bigport 4AGZE, take that all the doubters earlier in the thread

30psi 4AGTE; andrew collins' (fandio) AE92 GTZ picked up 60fwkw going from a smallport head to a blacktop head. Exact same bottom end so its pretty much the best comparion you can make... It is now making 273fwkw on 18psi with E85. And there aint no 16v 4agte that ive ever heard making that kinda power on such little boost. Ever.

[oldcorollas]

there might be a reason for that
while E85 does give a bit more Nm/L potential than 98, it's not going to make it 150Nm/L/bar....
(edit: i'm nto saying it's not possible tho )