180+ hp 4AGE running cost ?

[uzelac]

Hi

Seems like nowdays anybody know how to build 180+ hp 4AGE. Bill posted some great guide which I'm sure everybody read more than once.
It goes something like this, change intake and exhaust, throw some crazy cams and forged pistons, do some headwork, if you need to rev above 8000rpm change conrods and tighten all up with ARP fasteneres. 7rib block would be nice, aftermarket ECU or carbs are pretty much a must.
Sure, I'm oversimplificating things, but there are many recipies to do it.
What I haven't seen many times are running costs of engine like this.

As many, I'm in a process "what do to next" with my project/trackday AE86 with 4AGE. From what people talk, i could end up with 210+ hp if i do everything possible with mods (E85, high CR, dual stage injection, good bigport head, tight clearances..) but also can end up with just ~175 hp if I go safe way and use smallport, lower CR, use pumpfuel and leave a healthy safety margin in assembly and tune.

What's the point.
I'm interested what else does powerfull 4AGE needs to cope with more than 200hp. Wondered around forums a lot, people talk drysump, oil accumulator, bigger oil cooler/oil filter, cold intake airbox... and lots of maintenance.
How frequent oil change, what oil filter, what fuel? How often do you need to disassemble engine to see how are the pistons and rings withstanding track/stage abuse?
I would like to make my 4AGE with nice reliabilty/power ratio in mind. So, wondered, where is the limit when 4AGE is no more "easy living/daily driven fun" and becomes serious monster which needs a lot of care and maintenance, trailer to be towed to a track, 20 minutes to warm up, and different oil/fuel/setup/plugs/.. for different use.

Thanks

[shrike]

Im guessing you want to go n/a rather then the forced induction route?

Whats your budget

Whats your class requirements

and last of all whats your definition of "easy living/daily driven fun" see my daily is a 280kwatw rwd with a shimmed lsd(almost as tight as a locked diff) and a puck clutch I find it a hard car to drive but it is now to me daily driven easy fun but its a pain in traffic

[uzelac]

No class, making fun/trackday car but keeping it at FIA E1 1600ccm class "just in case". Pretty much only limit is displacement and that relates me that i must stay NA. That's fine by me since i wouldn't want 4AGE any other way.

For now, plan is for 10 weekend of fun per year and lot's of time spent on thinking what's next and how to make it.
No tight budget, but also no money and time to waste.

I own this car for last 4 years and made ~3000 miles/5000km and I plan to stay in that range or even less. Not willing to make it a trailer car if i really don't have to.
Don't wanna go, at least for now, with hard core mods like drysump.

Although, my car ain't that important. I would like lot's of opinions that could be compiled to to see some kind of list, like that Billzilla's on how to make power, but with mods and maintenance needed to sustain and keep that kind of 4AGE in good operating condition.

[shrike]

Alright in that case I would probably go to the following

Assuming you want to stick with the smallport head

blacktop pistons and a 0.8mm trd headgasket (I worked out the other day with that you can get 12.8:1 comp with this setup higher if you skim the head and block)
7 rib block with oil squirters
silvertop 4agze or smallport/bigport rods
arp head, main cap and rod bolts (ARP 2000)
440cc injectors (roughly may need to go bigger depending on duty cycle)
hi flow fuel pump (would suggust getting a surge tank)
stock fpr should be fine
a good aftermarket ecu (with a proper tune)
Bigport cams (higher duration) or a set of aftermarket cams (look at the following to decide 4A-GE 16v (with shim under cam bucket conversion) | 4A-GE 16 Valve | TOYOTA | Kelford Camtech )
shim under cam bucket conversion (if you go for bigger cams)
upgraded valve springs
all new gaskets water/oil pump etc
get the whole crank assy balanced
run it in correctly and do regular services
ummm lightened flywheel with a decent clutch
might need to upgrade gearbox and diff
id also suggust brakes and suspenion componants upgraded
Oil cooler if your oil temps are getting up there same with a different rad

think ive covered most things and this is just from personal knowledge so you may get different results also im quite happy to be corrected as I dont know everything

[uzelac]

Hey, thanks, but as i said, i know what engine parts make that power

I'm interested what after you make that kind of 4AGE.
From what i know:
- stock oil filter ain't good enough
- stock oil pump will easily cause problems while heavy cornering, i believe similar with water pump
- oil/water cooler are hardly good enough on a worm day and for longer runs
- oil accumulator ? maybe
- ......

Beside, what is regular service ? On time or mileage basis ? Every 10 hours of service ? Or once per 1/3/6 months. Maybe even once per 5000/10000 miles.
How long can this kind of 4AGE live with stock coolers/pump/standard oil ? Anything longer if higher quality components are used?

BTW. I already have pretty much everything needed for engine to make this kind of power.
http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?pa...sPage%2FUzelac

[shrike]

Ok sorry I mis read your orginal post

The TRD oil filter should be fine and I think there not much more then the stock unit (and I know people that use stock oil filters and run 350kw in F.I setups)

Ive never heard of an issue with either the oil or water pump due to cornering (however you have reminded me that a baffled sump to prevent oil starvation would be a good idea) waterpump you can always go to an electric one however if you use a new oem pump there shouldn't be an issue as water will circulate as its a pressurised system and shouldn't have air in it so im alittle confused but good quality hoses and clamps should stop issues with water loss, you can go to a trd thermostat which opens earlier but on the road the car would never come upto complete operating temp.

Oil pump wise you can get these but even if your running upto 8-9k redline the stock unit should manage ok and you can always reshim them to change oil pressure (i wouldnt bother unless your really paranoid or you have oil pressure issues)

I was meaning going to an alloy rad with more fans/cooling propertys if your water temps are getting high (again only needed if you notice a problem)

Oil coolers can be brought in verious sizing and if you run a thermostat with them then it should keep oil temps at a good level ie I doubt youd need anything really over a 10-15row as its n/a

I am a big fan of braided lines so they might be an idea also

ok so I would be doing a full service after every track day/race event road wise an oil change every 5000km and full service 10000km is what I go off but if your thrashing the car on a daily basis then I would do it at 2500km and 5000km

Also I would at 30000km intervals pull the sump off and check bearing conditions (main issue with the 4ages that ive noticed) its hard to really say how often as I have no idea how often your going to be racing or how long youll be on the track for

I know a few people that rebuild there engine after every season well others run F.I and have it run at high numbers for years (50000km+)

[uzelac]

This is great info.

My trackday is 30minute easy drive to track, 4x 30min sessions, and drive back. That's ~200miles/300km and 4x20minutes of hard driving plus time to warm up engine and cool it down.
It can be really hot here, air temp above 120F/50C at summer, so good cooling is a must.

[shrike]

oil pump wise theres this option Toda Racing Toda Heavy Duty Oil Pump for Toyota Corolla All - Fortyone Automotive Limited

ok so if you do those track days like I said full service after a track day and then lets say you do 4 track days a month I would say check the bottom end and cams every 3-6months I mean youll get used to your engine and 180hp isnt going to cause to much wear if youve used quality componants

It all depends on how anal you are and what you need to do to give yourself peice of mind

Ok so water temp wise if it gets really hot id do the following

new water pump (oem should be fine) but an underdriven lightened pully would help

trd thermostat (opens at 72C)

quality hoses and clamps

run 100% deminerlized water with water wetter (redline is what I use)

quality alloy rad if needed with a pull fan setup with shroud (vicous tends to be more effective but causes parasitic drag on your engine) if you got to electric fans I would run two of the biggest you can fit

on my burnout car I run a 52mm thick rad with two fans in push and one in pull due to space issues and an oem thermostat I can sit on the spot and have the car go no hotter then 95C for runs as long as 25mins (generally the tires pop before my car gets two hot) and my engine is a straight 6 with a turbo

oil wise I would run a 5w 50 or even a 0 w 50 as its a fresh engine (this is after its run in (use full mineral oil and preferably running in oil)

I use 10w40 on most of my cars but thats personal preference and im not an oil expert

[Animal15]

Can i asked where do you wanna 180HP at wheels or flywheel?
if it's on wheels in a 1.6 , 16v NA Motor it's really serious power...........

i don't think lot of ppl had done that ( I personally know there are few; only 2 ppl in here run 200hp 16v but i haven't seen their replies on this forum for ages.) ; most of the ppl will tell you DO-THAT DO THIS , BUY THIS SO ON ....... don't listen to them they talk with out own experience just repeat some one else said in some forums.

BEST THING IS TALK TO PPL DO THIS FOR LIVING, i think you in Serbia.... talk to engine few builders in you country it's the best way to find out.

FORUMS ARE GOOD for advice but the problem is most of the ppl talk with out experience. ( i mean no offense to any one)

if you look in aeu86.org there is a New Zea-lander who build Formula Atlantic 4AG follow his build; it will answered to most of your questions.

[uzelac]

Wheel or crank, no difference, i would like to know both, and everything in between .

And you are right, most ppl just copy paste how to make power, but as only few really have engines in that category it's clear it ain't just that easy.
And when you built it, you must live with it, and that sounds even more challenging.

[Animal15]

as i said i don't know he's here or not check "nzae86" in aeu86.org.

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mE8uokLSzzA)

[uzelac]

I know the guy, his garage, cars and engines. Dream come true for AE fanatic, he built another FA 4AGE just from "spare parts laying around".
Good idea to check with him, thanks!

[Sam_Q]

180hp is easy

get a stock 20v, matchport it, tune, proper intake and exhaust and your done.

[uzelac]

Ok, than we can raise the bar a bit.

What 4AGE needs to live with 220 crank hp ?

Beside, what's happening when valves are changed to some 33/30mm diameter ones ?

[Sam_Q]

ok how about from a different point of view, why go to all that trouble when a 3sge beams is so cheap