Reliable 9000rpm 4A. Am I dreaming?

[oldcorollas]

If Honda can do it out of the factory with a warranty, and use an alloy block, rockers instead of buckets and use a LONGER stroke, I cant see why it cant be done with a cast iron block and buckets.

Go do some research on the Honda VTEC engines. They're the only engines I know of that are in this league and have a warranty. They have to be doing something right. If they can do it, we can copy it.

yes... the pistons speeds of the F20C is around the speeds of F1 motors. which means 5000ft/min instead of 4000 which is the usual accepted limit.

as Mick said, REVS kill motors.. specifically, revs kill rods in tension.

the F20C survives longer at this rpm by using higher quality lighter pistons, and higher quality, better metallurgy rods. the bearings are nice (the surface finish was borrowed fromn their racing efforts), but it is the basic metallurgy and design of the rods and pistons that allow it to happen.

you copy it by getting much lighter pistons, and lighter, stronger rods.... thats the MAIN thing

[takai]

I can testify as to how hard it is to keep a hipo NA engine running at the sort of power outputs which you guys are talking about, let alone having it drivable on the road.

As for this

ooks pretty good I've currently got a 20V ST sitting waiting to be rebuilt as well, decided i'll be going for a high-revving n/a with ~115fwkw

I really dont think you know what you are aiming for, 115fwkw even through a C52 is around 150kw at the fly. Which is 200hp at the fly. You have no hope in hell of running a 9krpm 200hp engine day in day out on the roads, simply the power curve is a major issue, let alone the oiling issues, piston weights, rod weights, etc.
My 4A runs to 8700rpm at the track, and has barely any power below 4000rpm when it gets on song. Im only making 129rwhp, and i seriously need more compression in the bottom end. As for drivability on the road, you have to be kidding, there is no such thing with that engine.

As for the honda engines, the 7A idea can be put back on the shelf and burnt up immediately. The block is significantly weaker than the 4A due to the extra height. Oldcorollas is right, you can duplicate the setup which they use, but itll cost you a hell of a lot of money. Wiseco pistons (close to the lightest) are $1400 for the set, Arias rods are about $900 for the set there. Then start adding bearings etc.
If you really want to be able to run those figures reliably, you may as well go the way the Alfas do and gut the block and replace everything with a steel liner.

[limbo]

20v Formula 1 atlantic engine. There was a guy in NZ who had one. It costs $10k to import the engine from the US. Then they needed to lower compression drop the RPM and get an ECU to get it to be reliable for rally. it reved at 10,00rpm if i rem rightly

Originally I think the engine rev at 11,000rpm but need to be rebuilt every race.

Otherwise you could get a Honda engine. Integra Type Rs rev at 9k all day same with the s2000 engines.

I've seen a clip of a s2000 engine in an ae86 before also.

[limbo]

btw... i had the 20v silvertop and it revved till 9,000 rpm with an aftermarket ecu, wolf 3d. It can be done but mine wore out the poston rings. If you get the engine rebuilt with forged pistons you should be able to do the 9,000rpm easy

Also the clutch could not take it as the clutch didn't wanna release at 9,000rpm.

Otherwise it ran like that for a while about a yr without issues

[kingmick]

20v Formula 1 atlantic engine. There was a guy in NZ who had one. It costs $10k to import the engine from the US. Then they needed to lower compression drop the RPM and get an ECU to get it to be reliable for rally. it reved at 10,00rpm if i rem rightly

Originally I think the engine rev at 11,000rpm but need to be rebuilt every race.

Otherwise you could get a Honda engine. Integra Type Rs rev at 9k all day same with the s2000 engines.

I've seen a clip of a s2000 engine in an ae86 before also.

$10k would be for a worn out one and just the basic long motor. they come with 16v heads and your would go backwards putting a 20v on it.
as said you can get away with it for a little while in a stock motor if your lucky and the engine is in good condition, but that is all! you have to remmeber even on mst circuit tracks are car only uses WOT 60%-75% most of the time. so anywere else it would be lucky to be 1%-5% of the time.
ive buzzed a stock as a rock 100kw 4ag coming of the straight on the track to 11000rpm but it wasnt for long and it was ok but thats down to luck and timing{foot on the clutch}. aswell

[myne]

btw... i had the 20v silvertop and it revved till 9,000 rpm with an aftermarket ecu, wolf 3d. It can be done but mine wore out the poston rings.

I'd hazard a guess that that's due to both oiling issues and increased sidewall loads due to the geometry of the engine.

[adamaw11]

I wonder what rpm this guy takes his blacktop to. He says it lasted 5 race seasons! basically standard internals by the sounds of it.

http://toymods.net/forums/showthread.php?t=6886

You might be able to expect a lot from the blacktop 20v internals. Personally I think it would be good to just put it to the test, see if it can take the punishment, treat it like a reliable 9k daily driver, and only rebuild it when you have to - then again thats probably only for crazy people who aren't afraid of things going wrong, I'm not suggesting to do this.

People say the bt's rods look weak, and thin etc, but have many people really put them to the test?

[craigy]

if you have an unlimited budget and you must have nothing but a 9000rpm GE, or you are building this engine for a particular race class then go for it, continue the research and questioning.

Just remember there is a reason that that just about every person on some sought of a budget chooses to go with forced induction.

Boost
= Horsepower

Horsepower
=Fun!

Cheers
Craigy

[takai]

I wonder what rpm this guy takes his blacktop to. He says it lasted 5 race seasons! basically standard internals by the sounds of it.

http://toymods.net/forums/showthread.php?t=6886

You might be able to expect a lot from the blacktop 20v internals. Personally I think it would be good to just put it to the test, see if it can take the punishment, treat it like a reliable 9k daily driver, and only rebuild it when you have to - then again thats probably only for crazy people who aren't afraid of things going wrong, I'm not suggesting to do this.

People say the bt's rods look weak, and thin etc, but have many people really put them to the test?

Read the thread, he has a stock BT ecu.
Do note, the Chasers dyno is known to read somewhat high. Hell my GZE no mods made 114fwkw on it.

[mullett]

Thanks for all the responses...this thread went crazy before i even got a chance to reply to it. This was just a hypothetical engine, and the car was to be a westfeild. Use: Road and some circuit. I guess at the end of the day, if a stock blacktop can handle 8200ish RPM all day, with Toyota reliability, then it really makes sense to stick with that. Maybe source a F20C frontcut later down the track, if it comes to it. By all means keep the info coming, it's great to hear, and I'm sure heaps of people are keen to learn...myself included

RM.

[30psi 4agte]

I wonder what rpm this guy takes his blacktop to. He says it lasted 5 race seasons! basically standard internals by the sounds of it.

http://toymods.net/forums/showthread.php?t=6886

You might be able to expect a lot from the blacktop 20v internals. Personally I think it would be good to just put it to the test, see if it can take the punishment, treat it like a reliable 9k daily driver, and only rebuild it when you have to - then again thats probably only for crazy people who aren't afraid of things going wrong, I'm not suggesting to do this.

People say the bt's rods look weak, and thin etc, but have many people really put them to the test?

I like what you have said about " just try it" ( thats something id do lol )

I totally understand everyones points of view on this matter but i still do think its possible provided there is enough oil flow and the bottom end is preped to for the task.

As taki mentioned his motor revs to 8700 on the track ( dont think he has had a prob yet.)

My max power is achieved at 8750 with 30 psi going through it. My motor is fairly STD apart from the oil flow mods and full arp and balance.
As i have stated many times I have done more than 50 FULL ON power runs to this rpm with F# ALL wear on my engine bearings ( pulled motor down to check)
THIS IS NO JOKE: the wear on the bearings was so minimal that they could be put back in their box and sold and no one would know!!!!

Im not saying this sort of rpm is reliable but i am saying it is possible with minimal mods.
I do a rebuild/ pull down every 2500-5000 km so i guess this is part of the reason i can run so much power/rpm and get away with it.

IF YOU PLAN ON A 9000 RPM ENGINE THAT WILL LAST 10000-20000 KM FORGET IT!

[takai]

Yeah, all my problems havnt been engine related but ECU.

[oldcorollas]

for oil you could buy this...
http://page6.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/f45777427

probably about $900 landed

[kingmick]

for oil you could buy this...
http://page6.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/f45777427

probably about $900 landed

lol be cheaper from trd in australia! wouldnt be more than $300 !

lol a high quailty AVIAID 3 stage drysump pump cost me $1100 new! i know which i would pick

[oldcorollas]

only $1100 eh.. hmmm.......

cheaper than insurance.. and cheaper than a new engine