Which engine to use.?

[Shakotan_Aaron]

think he is talking budget spec guys, if he cant rebuild a 18rg then how could he afford some of these other options...

[old_school_jap1]

HHMMMM..Another thought..

21 head and front go straight on 18.????

Do 21's have decent head..will they rev.???

my 18 is race built so a good head might be easier....

the 21r head won't go on an 18r block. 21r head has square intake ports (same as 22r i think) and round exhaust ports. combustion chamber is hemispherical. they have a very good rod length to stroke ratio so they could rev well. a better head that would bolt up to the 18r block is an 8r head (they are meant to flow better and bump up compression), but they are hard to come by (although i could obtain one for you), but they still have the intake and exhaust ports on one side of the head.

[oldcorollas]

think he is talking budget spec guys, if he cant rebuild a 18rg then how could he afford some of these other options...

free 2S plus cam is cheaper than rebuild very hurt 18R....??

[XR Pilot]

Rex knows this is going against the 'fingers in the ears shouting "Toyota, Toyota, Toyota!!!"' theme of this forum but perhaps the wrecker could find you out a Holden 304/308 manual package?

Restricted to 2ltr unfortunatly..so 22R wont do.

Umm

What are the requirements for the class? You mentioned ST162s, are you allowed to run an early 3SGE? While it wouldn't be an easy rwd conversion, if you could get a low-ish km one from your wrecker as a sponsored motor that hasn't run a bearing by now then you can get about 125whp out of them with a set of extractors on the factory ecu. Mine held ower through to about 6900-7000rpm, nice flat torque curve wth 90 odd hp at 4500ish rpm. Ok for an old NA 2L.

[ViPeR_NiPPleX]

21R or 2S would be my picks only because you can play with the internals.

Problem with 2S over 21R would be the hydraulic lifters (convert to solid ones for high revs), and it's non-crossflow.

Problem with 21R is the akwardly shaped intake ports, chain driven camshaft, and they are less abundant.

They both share essentially the same bore/stroke. Power output and torque are comparable also. Camshaft profiles are aplenty for the R series. Things i'd be researching is valve sizes, port shapes, and combustion chamber design.

3S-FE isn't going to rev until you play games with the head, simple as that. 4A-GE will never have the torque to match a 2 liter. 18R.. pfft, pass (unless its a twincam!)

[dale30]

[QUOTE=XR Pilot]Umm

What are the requirements for the class? You mentioned ST162s, are you allowed to run an early 3SGE?

Maybe this will help.This is what i have to work with.Its pretty open really.

What i was thinking was to use one of the better 3S motors with the appolo carby manifold with a webber or WW stromberg parked on top of it.
If the 2S gearbox will bolt up to it.They seem to be a good motor cause the wreckers never sell a motor out of the sv21 or celica.

But hey you guys know about these things. Have fun with the rules and tell me what you think.Oh and money is a big issue at the moment as business has been really bad.
During the of season we should be able to rebuild and play....


32B CARBURETTOR ENGINES Up to 2 Litre

(a) Engine capacity 2070 cc absolute maximum. Engines to be standard stroke. Standard models only NO SPORTS model, REAR ENGINE or FUEL INJECTED engines allowed. Engine to remain stock standard. with allowed exceptions.!

(d) UP TO FOUR (4) cylinders only. Rotary, Turbocharged, Supercharged, or Special Race Rally packs NOT permitted. Motor interchanges are permitted in same make of car eg: Ford to Ford, Holden to Holden. Camshafts open. Cam followers to remain as per model. Standard con rods, standard type pistons (up to 60 thou) can be used. Crankshaft to remain standard for the block used. MAXIMUM OVERBORE PERMITTED 0.060". HEAD FACING PERMITTED. Engine block not to be machined more than 10 thou from standard. Base model valves and port sizes to be retained. NO PORTING or POLISING or port matching.

(e)Standard flywheel and clutch to be used. NO LIGHTENING

(b) Engine to remain visually standard per model with every thing operational, with the exception of fan blades, chokes and pollution eqpt(not required). Including Alternator wired and working & water pump. Manufacturer's markings to remain on engine block castings,


16valve carburettored engines nust remain completely standard as per manufacturers specs with the exception of rule 33.Camshafts to remain standard, Cam followers to remain as per model. Exhaust manifold standard, Standard con rods, standard type pistons (up to 60 thou) can be used. Crankshaft to remain standard for the block used. MAXIMUM OVERBORE PERMITTED 0.060". HEAD FACING PERMITTED maximum 0.030”. Engine block not to be machined more than 10 thou from standard. Base model valves and port sizes to be retained. NO PORTING or POLISING or port matching

33.Carburettor
Any standard factory single or dual throat Carburetor.
Manifold may be modified to accept adaptor plate. No adaptor plate to be more than 25mm thick. An extra return spring must be fitted to main throttle shaft.
Manifold and/or Carburetor may be fitted to injected motor with minor modifications

[dale30]

Another thing to be said is that the way i have my cars set up is that they dont slide or wheelspin very much unlike most speedway cars.

We start the race at about 3500 in second gear and then just hold it flat with one a small blip of the throttle to get it to turn in to the corners nicely.So what ever revs it will hold dictates lap speed.With available gearing and power range this means that the rona is about half a second of the pace now.Believe it or not the fastest cars are my 2 fuego's and 2 Telstars.
Yes thats right Telstars.!!!
It seems that the worst road cars seem to make the best race cars.

[Rex_Kelway]

Sorry lads, missed that 2L part.

Rex awaits the storm of negative rep-ribution...

He must say though, this speedway lark sounds like a riot!

[Shakotan_Aaron]

free 2S plus cam is cheaper than rebuild very hurt 18R....??

the talk about destroking a 308, and built 2s (rods, bolts, shin underbucket).. both would be exxy. and cannot be done anyway

but 2s with cam would be budget spec

maybe a change in diff ratio would help too??

you could do a 3 angle vale job too yeah?

[dale30]

the talk about destroking a 308, and built 2s (rods, bolts, shin underbucket).. both would be exxy. and cannot be done anyway

but 2s with cam would be budget spec

maybe a change in diff ratio would help too??

you could do a 3 angle vale job too yeah?

The only ratios are 3.89 and 3.43...to big of a jump. 3.7 would be great.

[ViPeR_NiPPleX]

I'm starting to warm up to the 3S-FE idea. Biggest issue is sourcing a carby manifold, from the 3S-FC. But combined with computer mapped ignition timing advance, should have a broad power band.

Is there restrictions on what fuels you can use?

[dale30]

I'm starting to warm up to the 3S-FE idea. Biggest issue is sourcing a carby manifold, from the 3S-FC. But combined with computer mapped ignition timing advance, should have a broad power band.

Is there restrictions on what fuels you can use?

im listening....

I have 3SFC complete for manifold

what car would i want the FE engine from.?

Yeah limited to pump fuel...Im running E gen 85 it seems to perform best on this.

[XR Pilot]

Thanks for posting those rules, that makes it a bit easier. I guess the 3SGE is out then, as it could be considered a sports model, as the 3SFE was the base spec, but less common.

As far as what cars you can get the 3SFE from, ST162 Celica's in an ST model (identifiable by 4 stud wheels vs 5) and SV21 Camry's. As said above, if your still allowed to retain the 3SFE efi computer to run the ignition then that should be worth while. Another option you could then play with later is a 3SGE ecu to try it for the different ignition mapping.

The biggest hurdle for doing a 3SFE swap would be converting it to rwd and I don't know the specifics on that conversion but I know it takes a fair few mix-and-match parts so you'll need to research that. Another thing too is you could probably bolt on a 5SFE head to a 3SFE short motor, but I'm not sure if this would be of any benefit or detriment as I don't know the cam profiles or port specs on either engine but its a development possibility. I dare say the 3SFE would rev better than the 2S as its square bore/stroke while the 2S is long stroke small bore.

EDIT: I just remembered the 5SFE has an 87mm bore (vs 3S 86mm), if its possible (again, don't know if it is or not just putting it on the table, so to speak) to use a 3SFE crank in a 5SFE block + pistons then this will give you a cheap capacity increase to 2044cc on the standard bore, under the class maximum 2070cc.

[dale30]

Thanks for posting those rules, that makes it a bit easier. I guess the 3SGE is out then, as it could be considered a sports model, as the 3SFE was the base spec, but less common.

As far as what cars you can get the 3SFE from, ST162 Celica's in an ST model (identifiable by 4 stud wheels vs 5) and SV21 Camry's. As said above, if your still allowed to retain the 3SFE efi computer to run the ignition then that should be worth while. Another option you could then play with later is a 3SGE ecu to try it for the different ignition mapping.

The biggest hurdle for doing a 3SFE swap would be converting it to rwd and I don't know the specifics on that conversion but I know it takes a fair few mix-and-match parts so you'll need to research that. Another thing too is you could probably bolt on a 5SFE head to a 3SFE short motor, but I'm not sure if this would be of any benefit or detriment as I don't know the cam profiles or port specs on either engine but its a development possibility. I dare say the 3SFE would rev better than the 2S as its square bore/stroke while the 2S is long stroke small bore.

EDIT: I just remembered the 5SFE has an 87mm bore (vs 3S 86mm), if its possible (again, don't know if it is or not just putting it on the table, so to speak) to use a 3SFE crank in a 5SFE block + pistons then this will give you a cheap capacity increase to 2044cc on the standard bore, under the class maximum 2070cc.

They wouldnt if there arse was on fire let alone what car a GE came from..

3 questions.
will 3SFC manifold fit ge or fe
will 2S ST141 gearbox bolt on as some one told me.
will computer work alright with carby instead if injection.

[XR Pilot]

Well in that case, if fitting a 3SGE is no problem then that's what I would go for. It should be said too that 3SGE powered ST162's are a lot more common than the 3SFE powered ones, so there not exactly special, as in the rally-spec the rules talk about.

I've been thinking too, your going to want to find an ecu that is map sensed not AFM sensed to run the ignition, which I *think* came in the 5SFE (2.2L) Camry's. I really can't offer much advice on this as I haven't had much to do with 3SFE's/5SFEs only 3SGEs on stock EFI. What this means is you need an ecu that uses a vacuum line to measure engine load, not an air flow sensor which you would need to hook up to have air drawn through it, a pain in the arse on a carby set up.

As far as the gearbox bolts up, from memory of reading about the conversion a long time ago it bolts up but finding the right combination of starter/clutch/flywheel is the hassle.