Laminova, a very different water to air cooler.

[MattMc]

Mate, you keep impressing with your TIG work, those welds loose fantastic.

Welding is all Awill4x4 and his is an artist but that is why I asked him to weld my first intercooler, he told me it would never work, from there we have not looked back

The Mav just needs a remote fill adding which I picked up today and the wiring, all the rest is done.

[MattMc]

Here is a section taken from my Wolf V500 ECU's date logging.



The top graph is Green RPM and Orange Throttle position..

The middle graph is MAP in Dark Blue and Boost in Light Blue

The bottom Graph is Red pre intercooler Temp and Dk Green post intercooler Temp.

Note the last graph the scales are different by 1.82:1 so the red should be almost twice what is shown. If the graphs were true to each other then the red at the start would be almost twice the height of the green. As pre intercooler temps sit around 45 Deg C with the heat soak from the engine after a 30min warming up. Post intercooler temps sit around 26 Deg C, ambient 19 Deg C. The red line would also increase in height by almost double if the scales were the same.

Hope that all makes sense.

The important thing is this is a run from second gear (as we don't use first except for step hills and off road, in fact Off road Low Range First is only used down hill.) to 3rd to 4th to 5th at full noise foot hard on the floor. Rather than a single gear run on the dyno.

Note it was also up hill.

The Dk Green line never moves well maybe just a tiny bit.

[MattMc]

Finished the Mav today.





I made it to DzlTec's
On the whole all good, I was a little disappointed that the post intercooler temp sat around the mid 50C, I expected to get closer to ambient with the larger heat exchange/rad. Ambient been 31C
So maybe integrating it into the plenum may have a down side, soaking heat up from the engine block. The generic bolt on version will be interesting to see with the same set up as it will not have this issue. But we intend to tell all.
Maybe twin thermo fans would be better for this situation on the Dyno, real world drving you would have air flow all the time not just when the dyno's huge cooling fan kicks in at the start of the run. This maybe more of a Dyno enviorment issue than real world. Also I had cained it for over 30min to get to the Dyno to see what I could push the EGT's too. So it was not from a cold start, I could have stuck it on the Dyno with the water at ambient and the first run would look outstanding. The post above was the 7th or 8th run for pre and post temps, plus my driving.
On the plus side, the intercooler rocks flat lining intake temps infact as you can see in the graph it actual gets colder as the turbo gets hotter. The cooling fan at the front of the dyno kicking in has a marked effect.



Power gains were excellent.

[thechuckster]

I think you should be running a reservoir/overflow for the coolant side of the intercooler?

Maybe your pump is going to fast? you should be able to slow it down? maybe measure some coolant temps pre/post intercooler & pre/pst radiator to help work out where your 20 degree difference to ambient is coming from

And out of curiosity, where are you measuring MAP and Boost from? Is just that the boost data in the Wolf logs looks a lot noisier than the MAP signal.

[OnAll-FOUR]

Is the MAP signal (Bark Blue) the v500 wolfs load signal? if it is it can be a combined signal from the MAP and the throttle sesponse. maybe that is why it is cleaner?

[web]

The real world also has such heat soak scenarios where you stand still with the engine running, even if only waiting at lights, warming tyres for the drags etc. Only in the ideal world you're always moving.

So if Wagonist (pg3, top) was still wondering why I said (pg2) it needed a fan... here's your answer. May not be factory on many setups but if you want all-out cooling performance (which you do, if you go to these lengths for the best possible intercooler), you can't do without fans, no matter what kind of intercooler you use.

[Roundy]

The main reasons stock cars don't have fans

1. Not on boost all the time. Whilst you are off boost the intake air cools the IC water.
2. The water pump doesn't run all the time, the ones in the GT4 run for 30s if you use full throttle.

So for point and squirt city driving, whilst you are cruising the pump is running, the water in the IC is been cooled by the intake air, and the water in the heat exchanger is been cooled by fresh air.

Also for the graph posted above, i don't think 20* is too much of a difference

In steady state conditions you aren't very likely to get the water temperature to ambient temperature, and then the when the air runs through the IC you won't get the intake air to the water temperature.

[MattMc]

The real world also has such heat soak scenarios where you stand still with the engine running, even if only waiting at lights, warming tyres for the drags etc. Only in the ideal world you're always moving.

So if Wagonist (pg3, top) was still wondering why I said (pg2) it needed a fan... here's your answer. May not be factory on many setups but if you want all-out cooling performance (which you do, if you go to these lengths for the best possible intercooler), you can't do without fans, no matter what kind of intercooler you use.

I agree fans are the order of the day but this also depends on you usage a little. If you were touring in a 4x4 I would still go with a single fan. If I was off roading more then yes 2 fans.

[MattMc]

Also for the graph posted above, i don't think 20* is too much of a difference

In steady state conditions you aren't very likely to get the water temperature to ambient temperature, and then the when the air runs through the IC you won't get the intake air to the water temperature.

I expected to be mid to high 40's on a 30c day but that was just my expectations. They are always disappointing when not reached, but I'm a hard task master on myself

[web]

The main reasons stock cars don't have fans

1. Not on boost all the time. Whilst you are off boost the intake air cools the IC water.

In the meantime, the engine radiator heats up the IC-radiator mounted close to it, while stationairy. And the intake airflow is so small, it's easily heated up rather than substantially cooling the water.

2. The water pump doesn't run all the time, the ones in the GT4 run for 30s if you use full throttle.

That's mostly for pump life and power consumption when unused. It has to last like 300,000 km and be as economical as possible, after all.

3. Very few cars are factory built for all out performance at any cost. In typical street use a fan isn't worth its money *to the factory* in performance gain. At factory boost this is absolutely true. Once you start pushing the envelope as a modder however, it's a whole different story.

[Roundy]

Well for the intake air to cool the water it needs to heat up, that is basic physics. And it doesn't matter just cruising. As for heating up whilst stationary, quite likely, how much i don't know, air is a pretty good insulator.

Pump life could certainly be a part of it, however a UK GT4 owner tested running the pump constantly vs how the factory designed it, with it only turning on with full throttle. And found that the factory setup maintained a lower water temperature in normal driving than running the pump constantly.

[Mos]

a UK GT4 owner tested running the pump constantly vs how the factory designed it, with it only turning on with full throttle. And found that the factory setup maintained a lower water temperature in normal driving than running the pump constantly.

Where was the temperature sensor placed?
What was the average water temperature, rather than the temperature at the specific point it was being measured?
What were the intake temps?

The "study" suggests that running the pump less means better heat transfer (by implying that lower water temperature means better heat transfer and not elaborating on it).
Without more indepth analysis, the "study" means very little.

Mos.

[Roundy]

Woops, was meant to be intake temperature.

It makes sense to me for point and squirt driving.

When off boost you don't need the coldest air possible, so sacrifice some efficiency there to gain it when on boost.

Whilst cruising the air in the heat exchanger is been cooled, with no more heat been put into it.

Put the foot down, the pump kicks in and fills the IC with nice cool water to take the heat.

Then the warmer water is back in the HE and cooling again.

Of course when you are into it the pump runs constantly.

This part is hardly scientific, but having had the IC pump fail on my car 3 times, i never noticed it on the street, and out of curiosity i stuck my finger in the IC water as soon as i pulled up when the pump wasn't working and it didn't seem much warmer than ambient, i expected it to be scorching!

[MattMc]

Second fan fitted intercooler water noticeably cooler after a good run.

Dyno on Tuesday but looking good.

[w0n0matic]

thats a davies craig water pump yea?
how did you mount that up?