Wideband O2 sensors, a few questions.

[oldcorollas]

ahhh,... i understand now


that bosch sensor is an LSM11.. (sorry i should have read your first post more carefully )

many people say it is a wideband, but they are full of shit.

it is a "wide range" narrow badn sensor.. meaning it is a well calibrated narrow band.

have a look at the response curve on page 3 here
http://www.bosch.se/content/language...58_till_60.pdf

it is still basically a switch, but has a more reliable curve for the rich end...

this is NOT a wideband...

it is a heated narrow band sensor, which is why there is 2 heater wires and a groudn and signal.. as opposed to the 5 or 6 wires(?) of a true wideband.

Motecs also touted this as a wideband sensor.. when it is actually not..

[adamaw11]

Well this is getting even more interesting

So it sounds like I might be able to wire up my current narrow band sensor (which has 4 wires) to the ecu and see if that gets any sort of reading.

Meanwhile I'll have to see if I can find a local source for one of these LSM11 sensors that the ECU is really asking for. - it was reassuring to see the part number on the bosch website.

[oldcorollas]

defintiely can hook up narrow band. the LSM11 is just a well calibrated narrowband..

from wbo2, $259 vs 94 for the LSU4
http://wbo2.com/lsu/sensors.htm


a bit of discussion
http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewtopi...2144a067ab80a2

and (iirc) the motec drawing of it
http://www.motec.com.au/drawings/x03.pdf

i'd just hook up a normal narrowband for now, as it will still give you closed loop operation exactly the same as the LSM11...
the LSM11 is not anywhere near as accurate as a proper wideband.. and the cost of a proper one + controller, is about the same price

edit: some proper wideband controllers can give an output the same as an LSM11.... not exactly ideal, but if the ECU can7t take a proper wideband input.. then it is a compromise

[JustCallMeOrlando]

I use the 2j1 with my power fc and fc -datalogit, works awesomely and reads very close to what you get from a professional meter used by dyno tuners.

That's very interesting to note, my 2CO was much the same. Damn good value too!

[Phildo]

Forgive me for digging up an old thread here, but my understanding isnt quite up to speed yet... I'm running the Stinger v4 and would like to implement a wideband o2 sensor - there are a few to choose from, but i'm after bang for buck.

I'm not scared of paying for quality, however I wont pay an extra $200 for one that reads 1% more accurately (although i'd like to know what accuracy differences are...)

Anyone know the best bang for your buck o2 sensor that is EMS Stinger v4 friendly?

Or are the ONLY two that can be used those specified in the manual:
- Bosch 4 Wire (Bosch Sensor Number 0 258 104 002)
- Bosch 5 Wire (Innovate LC-1)

Comments appreciated.

-Phil

[Phildo]

HOLYSHIT reply from Peter in UNDER 10 MINUTES!!
Excuse the long post, but it is informative.

Anything a crappy LC-1 can do we can do! No problem to ...

Set the output to read
0.050 volts for 8.0 air-fuel-ratio
and 0.950 volts for 22 air-fuel-ratio.

Use our 2C0 for profession results or the 2J1 for economical price and good results.

But, you will be disappointed if you're setting it for such a a small voltage swing (1 Volt) as you get 20% of the possible resolution - but see a possible solution here:

http://wbo2.com/faqs/autronic.htm

You'll need to change some of the details there, and I can help with that, but doing it like that is way better!

Peter


Phil Rosati wrote:

Gday,

I'm after an O2 sensor.. but it's for an after market car engine management system.. (Unsure if youre familiar with the EMS Stinger).

Some of your sensors look like very high quality units, which i wouldn't mind paying more for, however in the documentation for my computer, it specifies (for data logging purposes (which i want!)) the following:


Lambda sensor

The Ecu converts the sensor signal to and Air / fuel Ratio if Bosch wide band sensor is

connected and can used as a tuning aid.

NOTE: Use Sensor safe sealants on the exhaust system.


Bosch 4 Wire (Bosch Sensor Number 0 258 104 002)

In this mode the Ecu Provides Temperature compensation and Linearization of the sensor to

give accurate and repeatable results.

Allow 4 minutes for the sensor to reach minimum operating temperature.



Bosch 5 Wire (Innovate LC-1)

See LC1 Connection Drawing

In this mode the Stinger ECU reads either analog 1 or 2 of the LC-1.

Before the LC-1 can be used with the Stinger it must be calibrated. Use LM Programmer

software to calibrate the LC-1.

Set the output to read 0.050 volts for 8.0 air-fuel-ratio and 0.950 volts for 22 air-fuel-ratio.



Now I interpret this as it only supporting these two units, however the more i read, i start to think o2 sensors are more generic things that work only 1 of two ways... and can be calibrated to work in my application.

I'd appreciate your thoughts.

Cheers,

-Phil

--
Peter Gargano
--
Tech Edge Pty. Ltd. http://techedge.com.au http://WBo2.com
ph : (02) 6251 5519 Int'l : +612 6251 5519 Fax : +612 6251 0558
Street addr : 37 Jalanga Cres., Aranda, ACT 2614, Australia
Postal addr : PO Box 288, Jamison Centre, ACT 2614

[The Witzl]

to be honest, the Stinger isnt going to be accurate enough to need better wideband o2 resolution than a 0-1V signal.

I wouldnt bother with the voltage divider circuit that WBO2 suggest for Autronics, its a bit of a band-aid solution IMO.

Just program whatever wideband controller you get to give an output that is suitable for your EMS.

[Phildo]

Is that your opinion, or are you going to quote sensitivity figures...
Respect to you for replying and I don’t doubt your experience/expertise, however there are THAT many contradicting opinions being shot around forums, theyre useless without some sort of backup.

I hope you're correct - its cheaper that way, but would love to see your grounds for the comment.

-Phil

[The Witzl]

My grounds for it are the input senstivity of the EMS Stinger.

In reality, the stinger is no Autronic, and so improving the output voltage resolution from the wideband controller is kind of a waste of time, as it wont be read with any better accuracy by the Stinger.

If it were an Autronic, I'd recommend it... however i still see a voltage divider circuit as a pretty rough and inaccurate way of getting the job done. Programming the wideband controller to give the output voltage range you want is still better IMO.

[takai]

While we are on the topic, how much are the Bosch 17053 (which i think are the LSU4s according to TE) locally? I can only find US links for them.

[Phildo]

My grounds for it are the input senstivity of the EMS Stinger.

Well... You haven't really justified anything here, basically youve just said:

-The Stinger isnt as good as the Autronic
-A higher resolution o2 reading is a waste of time with the Stinger
-An Autronic would benefit from a higher resolution

Why dont you add some merit to your comments and quote the ACTUAL sensitivity of the Stinger and the ACTUAL sensitivity of the Autronic? It really is a waste of a post otherwise - nobody wants unjustified opinions (as i explained in the last post).

Also - I'd love for you to tell me how the controller begins outputting in the 0-1V range once programmed to, without using a simple set of resistors. To me, that seems like the SMART way to do it.

[JP]

well from the stinger manual it states:

Bosch 5 Wire Wide Band (Innovate LC-1)
In this mode the Stinger ECU reads either analog 1 or 2 of the LC-1.
Before the LC-1 can be used with the Stinger it must be calibrated. Use LM Programmer
software to calibrate the LC-1.
Set the output to read 0.050 volts for 8.0 air-fuel-ratio and 0.950 volts for 22 air-fuel-ratio.


It's pretty easy to program the outputs on the LC-1, I've got mine setup for a wider voltage range which is datalogged with a datalogit on my powerfc's.

[Phildo]

JP: Do you use it for tuning and have good results?

[RT40Corona4AGTE]

Also - I'd love for you to tell me how the controller begins outputting in the 0-1V range once programmed to, without using a simple set of resistors. To me, that seems like the SMART way to do it.

I am pretty sure that the "controller" reads the signal from the 02 sensor using its internal Analog to Digital converter, does the number crunching based on the preset calibration range and then uses its internal Digital to Analog converter to output the required signal within the specified voltage range based on the calibration done.

Also, using a simple voltage divider (set of resistors), as already pointed out by "The Witzl", is not a SMART way to do voltage conversions. This is due to several factors, ie. current could be limited, etc. Resistors also heat up and change their resistance value which with such a small voltage level required to be read, could be detrimental to achieving an "accurate" reading. Digital A to D and D to A is the SMART way!

Hope this helps.

[JP]

JP: Do you use it for tuning and have good results?

Sure do.

I set mine up with the datalogit following these instructions and it works perfectly:
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/r...c_tutorial.php