running in an engine, conflicting information

[skiddz]

lol yeah it is isnt it im feeling a bit delicate big night not much sleep.... that and im soft

[The Real Roadrunner]

my personal preference is to run a brand new engine in on a chassis or engine dyno. i use up to 100% throttle but keep the revs below 5000 (not using a rev limiter as this can cause bearing damage) and the engine loaded at all times.

if your starting with a fresh ecu make sure you keep a good eye on your afrs as fresh engines dont like to be run rich as it causes bore washing ie the fuel washes the oil off the bores which aint good.

start with a cheap mineral oil (like hpr 30)
i change the oil after 50km, then at 250 and then every 500kms after that till 5k only after that will the engine be clean enough to run a good synthetic oil.

i think everyone has differing opinions on this subject so i supose its up to you, i run engines in hard and dont have probs with it cause as stated in motomans webpage there is a big difference in the way machining is done these days compared to the old.

cheers
linden

[Grega]

some good info here ; ta for this

makes you wonder about the 15,000km between service intervals for new cars (when oil starts to break down around 7,000km of use)

[o_man_ra23]

some good info here ; ta for this

makes you wonder about the 15,000km between service intervals for new cars (when oil starts to break down around 7,000km of use)

Grega,
Oils have changed a lot over the years, with synthetic oils having much greater longevity. The link below is to an excellent work-in-progress analysis of multiple synthetic oils. So far, their Mobil1 test proved to be good for 12,000 miles (yeah, their yanks, but independant from oil companies) before needing a filter change, and kept on for another 6,000 miles before the oil was unsafe to use. Thats a total of close to 28,000 kms... in under a year. The test engine was a 10,000 mile (16,000km) old LS1 in a chev camaro... so it should wear pretty quickly

The Amsoil stuff they tested lasted 14,000 miles without filter change and ran out of time (mandatory change after a year), but lost viscosity quicker than the Mobil1. I will be keeping an eye on their study (and perhaps send them some money and ask them to test Penrite Sin5), as its quite interesting to see just how long the oil does actually last.

Anyways, here is the link for those of you interested in their work. They are looking for donations, and if you value your performance engine and think that their study could save you mucho casho, then it might well be worth sending in 20 squid or so.

Paradise Garage Oil Study

[allencr]

Just drive it, not like a maniac/ass and not like an old lady. Light oil, keep the idle up, no lugging(accelerating/WOT in 2nd and above from below 2,500rpm) and no redlining 3rd and above. NO OVERHEATING from high loads or anywhere even close to it.
Change the oil every 5 minutes if you like, but the oil you drain won't have anything in it that hasn't already done its damage & been caught by the filter, so different/new oil won't do anything different at all. Of course this doesn't mean it should never be changed, 1000k and then your regualr schedule is fine. If it get FUCKED UP, it wasn't because of oil & filter being changed 1 or 2000k too late, and 500k changes wouldn't have helped it!
Bearings don't 'break in', they only wear out and wouldn't at all if there was always oil pressure at startup and it has never had any lugging, pinging or high rpm supply problems.
Pistons/pins barely 'break in', just kept cool & lubed.
Valve guides barely 'break in', just burnish out the high spots.
Cams & followers/lifters somewhat 'break in', just a lot of well lubed rubbing & scraping to smooth out the high spots.
Oil and water pumps & dizzy & seals & belts & valve seats will take care of themselves.
So the rings are really the only thing that HAS TO break in and they've got the worst conditions to deal with - iron against iron under under high heat & pressure with little lubrication & chance to cool down. All those little scratches that you can see but just barely feel with your fingernail hold all the lube they'll get, and the only cooling besides the cylinder wall, is from oil thrown up to the piston from the rod journal. This'll keep them cool enough until they wear in & stop generating so much heat on their own, and all you need to do this is put in thin/low viscosity oil so plenty gets thrown around, and keep the high load/heat periods short so the piston & walls don't overheat & scuff.
Good luck.

Edited for cams&oil & o_man_ra23, Thanks.

[o_man_ra23]

Cams & followers/lifters barely 'break in', just a lot of well lubed rubbing & scraping to smooth out the high spots.

Cams most certainly DO break in. Its got to do with the outer metal compacting. If you put in new cams and dont run them in properly, they will chatter and destroy both themselves and your buckets/shims. And with shim over bucket theres a chance that the chattering can grab and flick out a shim. IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO RUN IN CAMS PROPERLY.

Otherwise yeah, its rings that need the special attention, and the loading methods described here will bed them in better. Changing the oil regularly will prevent many things. One is clogging the filter. Another is that during break in period the oil breaks down quicker and things like acidity content increase... harming your bearings first (as they are soft) as well as the rest of the engine. It also loses its ability to keep bearings off crankshafts, and thats bad mmmmkay!!

Sorry mate, but you have been misinformed on a few of these critical areas, and not changing the oil regularly during run-in can reduce engine life more than poor clearances.

[schnitzel]

Grega,
Oils have changed a lot over the years, with synthetic oils having much greater longevity. The link below is to an excellent work-in-progress analysis of multiple synthetic oils. So far, their Mobil1 test proved to be good for 12,000 miles (yeah, their yanks, but independant from oil companies) before needing a filter change, and kept on for another 6,000 miles before the oil was unsafe to use. Thats a total of close to 28,000 kms... in under a year. The test engine was a 10,000 mile (16,000km) old LS1 in a chev camaro... so it should wear pretty quickly

The Amsoil stuff they tested lasted 14,000 miles without filter change and ran out of time (mandatory change after a year), but lost viscosity quicker than the Mobil1. I will be keeping an eye on their study (and perhaps send them some money and ask them to test Penrite Sin5), as its quite interesting to see just how long the oil does actually last.

Anyways, here is the link for those of you interested in their work. They are looking for donations, and if you value your performance engine and think that their study could save you mucho casho, then it might well be worth sending in 20 squid or so.

Paradise Garage Oil Study

Your right Oils have definetly changed, we provide some oils for trucks that do 100.000 klm between changes , thats right 100000 k.Alot of car oils are being pushed out to 30000 km. Beware of cheap supermarket crap oil tends to be high in detergent and normally made from recycled oil. Would be interested to hear how people actually think most synthetic oils are made. Think a few of you would be surprised.

As for running in I subscribe to the varying throttle and no more than 80 % load for a motor I am going to use on the road. However for a competition motor I run them on a stand for first hour at varying throttle postions including sharp throttle change, change oil put in car and drive it as I would when competing.

[o_man_ra23]

I have heard of 100,000km oils for performance cars/bikes... about $70 a litre, and they claim (Brother in law says its no false claim... he races road bikes BTW) it gives you 15% power increase due to lower losses.

That would be some crazy oil... so yeah 100,000k truck oil does not seem infeasible.

[Billzilla]

Useless trivia - The big ships that run around the world with the big diesel engines (yeah, like those famous Sulzer photos) rarely change their oil - What they do is sail into port, shut the engine down, then run the synthetic oil through a centrifuge to clean it.
Change the filters, top if up is need be, and away they go again. It hardly ever gets changed.


I've got a small centrifugal filter off a 1980 Toyota diesel Lancruiser here, never got around to using it on anything.

[Billzilla]

Here's a diagram of one ->
http://www.albion.com.gr/how%20works.jpg
(big!)

[schnitzel]

Useless trivia - The big ships that run around the world with the big diesel engines (yeah, like those famous Sulzer photos) rarely change their oil - What they do is sail into port, shut the engine down, then run the synthetic oil through a centrifuge to clean it.
Change the filters, top if up is need be, and away they go again. It hardly ever gets changed.


I've got a small centrifugal filter off a 1980 Toyota diesel Lancruiser here, never got around to using it on anything.

Sort of true, they dont actually do oil changes as such, oil is filtered continuosly with a natural amount consumed and replaced during normal use. Oil reservoirs are huge and filtration is much more advanced than what we use in cars. When in port they tend to shut down one engine and service and filter to a higher degree, with a portion scavenged and sent to be mixed with the bunkers for startup. Also is a very heavy oil to begin with that always stays at the correct temperature due to engines operating continuosly at a constant speed. Would note in a previous life spent 20 years in the shipping industry before swapping to the petroleum industry. But you are right some of these engines are huge, you can stand on top of a piston and not touch the top of the bore or the piston walls on the really big ones.

[o_man_ra23]

The big ones the japs are building have ladders cast into the blocks to climb up when they are positioning the big end bearings during assembly

[Billzilla]

Sort of true, they dont actually do oil changes as such, oil is filtered continuosly with a natural amount consumed and replaced during normal use. Oil reservoirs are huge and filtration is much more advanced than what we use in cars. When in port they tend to shut down one engine and service and filter to a higher degree, with a portion scavenged and sent to be mixed with the bunkers for startup. Also is a very heavy oil to begin with that always stays at the correct temperature due to engines operating continuosly at a constant speed. Would note in a previous life spent 20 years in the shipping industry before swapping to the petroleum industry. But you are right some of these engines are huge, you can stand on top of a piston and not touch the top of the bore or the piston walls on the really big ones.

Thanks for that.

[Big T]

If you changed cams to new ones, then you need to go through the 20 min at 3000rpm with big fan pointed at radiator (important), but if you are using stock used cams, no need.

Just to query this... it's done on the very startup of a new motor? I've got a rebuilt motor with new cams but all other advice in this thread points at NOT holding the motor at one rpm for an extended amount of time?

Eddie.

[love ke70]

Just to query this... it's done on the very startup of a new motor? I've got a rebuilt motor with new cams but all other advice in this thread points at NOT holding the motor at one rpm for an extended amount of time?

Eddie.

i was wondering the same thing....
kinda a catch 22....