Q's. re:4AGZE throttle body positioning/re-location

[PrettyCoolWagon]

Hi guys,

you know how the throttle body on a standard 4AGZE comes straight after the super charger??

Well...
I'm wondering what the reasoning is for Toyota placing it there & not at the intake like all other 4A** engines?


The standard 4AGZE intake piping has a lot of restrictions, sharp bends & uneven intake lengths.

I'd like to improve this set up by running the intake piping straight from the supercharger without a throttle body, to a front mount intercooler ...& then use a 1st generation 4age bigport throttle body & intake which has a better ramming effect at top end speeds when the sc is disengaged. (I'd be using an adapter plate not the TVIS)

I have the parts but haven't done an engine re-build or conversion before.
Engine is a JDM AFM from an AE92 Levin

but I'll be swapping the head from this onto another 7-rib block that I have with the oil squirters & ceramic piston heads

But don't worry, I plan on doing a stock re-build & conversion into an AE95 first.

http://www.toymods.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=63842

These questions are for down the track - (after the engineers certificate)

This thread is purely for discussing the details around throttle body positioning.

1) Why is it located after sc?
2) Can I safely re-locate it to intake?
3) Will there be any bolt up / wiring / plug in issues?

[feral4mr2]

for starters the TB is located before the s/c. all the piping, s/c, intercooler etc to the inlet manifold from the TB is basicaly a plenum chamber. and also in a vacum when the TB is closed. IMO isnt that restricted, i'm sure the toyota engineers understanding of this is much better than yours and mine though when it was built.

you will need a large wastegate between s/c and TB if relocated after the s/c as your TB (or piping etc.) wont like ~1.2 liters of air being forced at it on shift change.

the s/c will not directly bolt up when a 4age inlet manifold is used.

[Duk]

for starters the TB is located before the s/c. all the piping, s/c, intercooler etc to the inlet manifold from the TB is basicaly a plenum chamber. and also in a vacum when the TB is closed. IMO isnt that restricted, i'm sure the toyota engineers understanding of this is much better than yours and mine though when it was built.

you will need a large wastegate between s/c and TB if relocated after the s/c as your TB (or piping etc.) wont like ~1.2 liters of air being forced at it on shift change.

the s/c will not directly bolt up when a 4age inlet manifold is used.

The standard TB (and AFM if fitted) is to small.
The amount of pre SC plumbing is more fore packaging reasons than any thing else.
An end intake SC like an Eaton/Magnuson or twin screw would alleviate 2 very tight 90* bends.
Pressure measuring just as the air enters the actual SC would tell the full story of flow restriction from the 3 90* bends pre SC, but would only be worth while if the TB is large enough to no longer be a flow restriction.
Post SC TB would allow the TB to flow more, but you would still require 3 90* bends to get the air to the SC.

[turbo ke20]

I have seen this done, I had an engine with this setup on it.
There is alot of work required in modifying pipes and supporting the top bracket of the S/C
If you are going to that much effort and putting on a standard intake manifild you may aswell ditch the supercharger and go turbo

[TERRA Operative]

Just stick a gen3 3SGTE throttle body on and leave it at that if you want to do it easy.
I get up to 12 PSI with an SC12, adjustable cam pulleys and the 3S throttle body with bigport cams and blacktop headers.

If you really want to stick an N/A manifold on, you will need to custom fabricate the top mounting point for the supercharger and plumb the intercooler straight into the manifold.
You will have to space the stock throttle body down pipe to the supercharger away from the manifold to fit, and while you're at it, the outlet pipe from the supercharger up to the intercooler could be replaced with a 2.25" pipe for better flow.
Add an SC14 in and use a water to air intercooler and you will have a very nice system.

It's what I'll be doing in the next few months to my GZE, so stay tuned.

[feral4mr2]

The standard TB (and AFM if fitted) is to small.
The amount of pre SC plumbing is more fore packaging reasons than any thing else.
An end intake SC like an Eaton/Magnuson or twin screw would alleviate 2 very tight 90* bends.
Pressure measuring just as the air enters the actual SC would tell the full story of flow restriction from the 3 90* bends pre SC, but would only be worth while if the TB is large enough to no longer be a flow restriction.
Post SC TB would allow the TB to flow more, but you would still require 3 90* bends to get the air to the SC.

maybe someone with the right equipment needs to put a stock 4agze set-up from air filter to inlet manifold on some sort of flow bench and correctly measure at different points of interest vacum etc. so we all can see for sure what needs 'upgrading' and what actualy flows enough for what the system can reliably produce.

[Duk]

maybe someone with the right equipment needs to put a stock 4agze set-up from air filter to inlet manifold on some sort of flow bench and correctly measure at different points of interest vacum etc. so we all can see for sure what needs 'upgrading' and what actualy flows enough for what the system can reliably produce.

Or just jam a big turbo on before the TB and be done with it

[feral4mr2]

done that, it was great. i need to get my bit's together and do it again.

[PrettyCoolWagon]

for starters the TB is located before the s/c. all the piping, s/c, intercooler etc to the inlet manifold from the TB is basicaly a plenum chamber. and also in a vacum when the TB is closed. IMO isnt that restricted, i'm sure the toyota engineers understanding of this is much better than yours and mine though when it was built.

you will need a large wastegate between s/c and TB if relocated after the s/c as your TB (or piping etc.) wont like ~1.2 liters of air being forced at it on shift change.

the s/c will not directly bolt up when a 4age inlet manifold is used.

Ok so I stand corrected, my engine came in dismantled pieces & I admit, I was firing of questions before taking a proper look at the manual ...(more reading to do)

So it's, air filter, throttle body, super charger, intercooler, intake chamber, motor exhaust.
Agreed toyota engineers def' know there stuff way better than most of us!

I guess the main thing that got me started on this was the fact that I like the the idea of a plenum & long intake runners for torque ..& then became curious as to why the toyota engineers set it up the way they did.

Agreed re: the waste gate - if I did do it that way, the set up would be more similar to turbo.

[Duk]

done that, it was great. i need to get my bit's together and do it again.

Redoing mine as well

[TERRA Operative]

Oh, and the 4AGE, 4AGZE and gen 2/3 3SGTE throttle bodies are bolt for bolt compatible. The 4AGZE TB butterfly is 5mm smaller in diameter than the other two though, and the 4AGE TB has the wax pellet idle air bypass rather than the ECU controlled motor on the 4AGZE and 3SGTE, which means your car will stall in summer with the A/C on if you use the 4AGE TB.

Been there, done that. The 3SGTE is the way to go, unless you have a 4AGE butterfly and bore out the 4AGZE TB, but that's work.

[PrettyCoolWagon]

The standard TB (and AFM if fitted) is to small.
The amount of pre SC plumbing is more fore packaging reasons than any thing else.
An end intake SC like an Eaton/Magnuson or twin screw would alleviate 2 very tight 90* bends.
Pressure measuring just as the air enters the actual SC would tell the full story of flow restriction from the 3 90* bends pre SC, but would only be worth while if the TB is large enough to no longer be a flow restriction.
Post SC TB would allow the TB to flow more, but you would still require 3 90* bends to get the air to the SC.

Stickin with the standard sc

[PrettyCoolWagon]

I have seen this done, I had an engine with this setup on it.
There is alot of work required in modifying pipes and supporting the top bracket of the S/C
If you are going to that much effort and putting on a standard intake manifold you may as well ditch the supercharger and go turbo

Is this where you saw it done?

http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=53427


Re: turbo - Yeah.., I am starting to wonder about this. I've been steadfast so far about sticking with the supercharger, even considering the sc 14 ....but every now & then I think about turbo..

Some of the pluses of removing the supercharger would mean I get to keep the vacuum drum actuator that operates the central diff-lock on the AE95 & wouldn't have to worry about finding a new way to actuate it.

[PrettyCoolWagon]

Just stick a gen3 3SGTE throttle body on and leave it at that if you want to do it easy.
I get up to 12 PSI with an SC12, adjustable cam pulleys and the 3S throttle body with bigport cams and blacktop headers.

If you really want to stick an N/A manifold on, you will need to custom fabricate the top mounting point for the supercharger and plumb the intercooler straight into the manifold.
You will have to space the stock throttle body down pipe to the supercharger away from the manifold to fit, and while you're at it, the outlet pipe from the supercharger up to the intercooler could be replaced with a 2.25" pipe for better flow.
Add an SC14 in and use a water to air intercooler and you will have a very nice system.

It's what I'll be doing in the next few months to my GZE, so stay tuned.

Yeah I was reading up, somewhere today - someone was quoting you & doing an instructional 'how to' re: gen s ssgte TB on 4agze .. sounded interesting..

Been cramming a lot of info between my ears lately between converting my shed into decent workshop.

Need some time to digest all the info / options better.

[PrettyCoolWagon]

maybe someone with the right equipment needs to put a stock 4agze set-up from air filter to inlet manifold on some sort of flow bench and correctly measure at different points of interest vacum etc. so we all can see for sure what needs 'upgrading' and what actualy flows enough for what the system can reliably produce.

That's a great idea, I'm sure plenty of people would be interested to know..

Would also be good to test a few different set ups