Getting the most from a Silvertop

[kiwi]

So have talked it over with a fair few people and really have come to the opinion that I dont have the money to play with the big boys.

So I really need to get the most out of the stock unit.
Mods so far:
70mm trumpets
Blacktop computer conversion
Blacktop intake cam
TRD head gasket
blacktop flywheel

car is a ae82 fxgt jdm model with a cage.

Sam or bizilla what would be the best way to get a bit more out of the silvertop as currently the b16 civics kill me on the track, I just cant keep up.

Should I get my cams reprofiled to tomei ponycam cam spec. Or is that a waste?

Exhaust timing, whats best as I have an adjustable cam gear from a 16v here.

I know it will never be the best but any secret to unlock a few more hp cant hurt.

Thanks in advance.

[dnegative]

Its a track car, go run it on methanol or some other oxygen rich jungle juice and get it tuned with a good ECU, otherwise your going to struggle to get more than 90fwkw out of it.

[kiwi]

I am stuck woth the stock computer.
It also has mrp race coil overs, ae111 big brakes

[knightrous]

This is what I would do:
- install stock blacktop pistons (Like $80ea new), this will bump the compression up to ~12.5 to 1 when fitted into a silvertop, throw in the best jungle juice you can like dneg said, ethanol, methonal, whatever you can afford.
- buy a good set of Kelford Cams to Type C's or bigger and matching valve springs, about $1k
- aftermarket computer, don't waste your time with stock management. You could do it with a MegaSquirt or a cheap second hand Microtech for ~$500
- blacktop flywheel
- underdrive water pump pulley, since you'll be doing a lot of revving out on track to make that power

[kiwi]

My whole budget is $500~~

What I dont get and what annoys me is why did Toyota purposely fault its 20v engines with poor ecu and generally make them inferior to the b16 when they were designed to capture the same market and do you know how frustrating it is to have the same 165hp as they do YET you cant catch them at all and are a good 8 to 12 sec a lap slower.... it really gets old very quickly.

/rant...

Knightous with no option but stock ecu what can I do to get a few more hp? Ditch vvt?

[adamaw11]

My whole budget is $500~~

plan exactly what you want, and save up for it.

Sounds like you've spent a decent bit already on your setup.

If you're determined to stay NA, and not willing to pull an engine apart, I'd recommend selling your silvertop and blacktop computer, and buying a blacktop engine, and aftermarket computer.

I changed from a stock silvertop(which was getting old and tired - burning oil) with trumpets and aftermarket computer, to a stock blacktop and there was a big difference - ~1 second on the quarter and ~10kmh trap speed.
Have you got any measurements of your performance currently? dyno? quarter mile? trap speed?

If you're willing to put some work into it, just save up and do what knightrous says.

getting beaten by B16s is not acceptable!
(my blacktop has never lost to a B16 civic! - its the K20 powered integras that give me trouble)

ps. Have you played with your ignition timing at all? run higher octane fuel and more ignition advance.

[LittleRedSpirit]

My whole budget is $500~~

What I dont get and what annoys me is why did Toyota purposely fault its 20v engines with poor ecu and generally make them inferior to the b16 when they were designed to capture the same market and do you know how frustrating it is to have the same 165hp as they do YET you cant catch them at all and are a good 8 to 12 sec a lap slower.... it really gets old very quickly.

/rant...

Knightous with no option but stock ecu what can I do to get a few more hp? Ditch vvt?

You are using the Blacktop ECU on a Silvertop, so while its a known working thing, surely there are a couple of finer points that could be better. There are some physical differences between silvertop and blacktop engines, how they work the vvt, CR, and in the inlet and exhaust port design. Japanese fuel is also rated a little higer in the octane scale, and these engines are supposed to run japanese premium fuel. I assume you are using pump 98? The stock ecus perform best at looking after a stock engine for the long haul. Once you start tinkering and get away from standard setups then you can lose ponies for no great reason.

Do you run the stock trumpets in a box or did you ditch this with the blacktop ecu swap when you put in the map sensor? I personally believe they are better enclosed with small parabolic trumpets inside the box. You can filter and cool the air this way.

Also, there are a lot of more artistic and inexpensive ways to find power. Mass production doesnt always mean you get great quality results in fit and finish of components. Make sure your inlet and exhaust manifolds are port matched properly. You can do this yourself, and it doesnt cost bugger all. Get it as close to the stock setup as you can with a stock ecu, but if you want to tinker and tune for the changes you really should purchase something user friendly like and adaptronic ecu. Especially with cams possibly going in.

[bermy]

[...]how frustrating it is to have the same 165hp as they do[..]

Sorry to brake the news to you but we're talking more about 140-145bhp for a silvertop and around 150 for a blacktop... Toyota lied. Sad but true.

Anyway, knightrous advice is spot on. N/A power is not cheap, even less on 20v.

[LittleRedSpirit]

Sorry to brake the news to you but we're talking more about 140-145bhp for a silvertop and around 150 for a blacktop... Toyota lied. Sad but true.

Anyway, knightrous advice is spot on. N/A power is not cheap, even less on 20v.

I think a lot of the differences between claimed and 'actual' hp can be attributed to the hp unit scale they were using. I think all Toyota engines of this era were rated on a sightly more generous scale to the engines after around the early 2000s. As such, a lot of the newer generation engines dont make that much more power on paper according to Toyota, but they go a lot better. Add to this some slightly inferior fuel, and you could well see a 10hp drop. Then consider you are using an import engine in most cases that may have 100000klms on it and three oil changes. Nobody really just does a 100% standard rebuild so its hard to find out 100% authentically. Plus there are multiple versions of silvertops out there with different port designs. I guess I dont doubt the figures as a point of comparison among engines of this era, but Toyota themselves have stated that they switched scales sometime between then and now.

Having owned both, Silvertops werent as free revving in nature as Blacktops. Silvertops feel more torque output a little lower in the revs, whereas the blacktop engines prefer to spin fast. I had a silvertop with blacktop flywheel in my ae71, and the blacktop before that. I also had blacktop quads on the silvertop for a while, and even though the ports werent a great match it still ran very well.

[trdee]

have you extracted all the performance you can from your tyres and suspension? i think you will find more lap time for less money from there

good tyres will save you seconds per lap.

[Sam_Q]

p

If you're determined to stay NA, and not willing to pull an engine apart, I'd recommend selling your silvertop and blacktop computer, and buying a blacktop engine, and aftermarket computer.

I changed from a stock silvertop(which was getting old and tired - burning oil) with trumpets and aftermarket computer, to a stock blacktop and there was a big difference - ~1 second on the quarter and ~10kmh trap speed.

Then something was wrong, there should be no way that there should be this much of a difference. Some people have even said that the silvertop is faster on the street due to having more mid range power. I can't comment on this though as my old set up wasn't ideal.

Also of note I have tried different cars now knowing what engine specs they had and I would bet money on the fact that a stock everything low km blacktop would put up very little fight against a silvertop with a new tune using 98 octane fuel.

[Sam_Q]

Alright kiwi can post a picture of what you have now in terms of the intake?

Apart from suggestion of port matching which was good everything else is way over your budget. The single best thing is the ECU, both 20V engines have very crude and restricive tunes from new, the silvertop being the worse of the two. That's assuming the ECU is still even healthy.

Advancing the timing should help but taking the usual steps to check for detonation of course.

One other thing, can you weld? or get things welded

[trdee]

have seen a silvertop with minor breathing mods and an aftermarket ecu pull almost 100rwkw

but nevertheless. you are wasting your time pumping all this cash to make maybe 20kw more if you arent running good tyres and suspension. 6sec a lap difference says to me that you are losing a lot of time in the corners, not on the straights

[knightrous]

I don't know what your rules and regulations are, but for $500, you could probably build a Nitrous kits for around that with a 50HP - 75HP shot.
However then your always going to be refilling bottles and you will still have to fiddle around with getting a safe tune out of an already craptastic stock computer.

[HMI265]

if it hasn't been already done and fits your rules and regulations, is there any more weight you can strip out of it? 30 bucks worth of dry ice makes removing all the sound deadener on the floor a piece of cake. That should be 15-ish kg gone.
Not sure if the fxgt had electric windows but if so swap it to manual out of a ae92, if the windows/doors are longer on the fxgt then just extend the rail/mechanism.

Lower weight, better suspension and tyres will help the lap times more than a little bit of power.