4AGTE 350rwhp/260rwkw build!

[deviot]

Hey Guys,

Starting to build/spec up a 4AGTE for my next car build, will be going in something different (a Morris Minor) so RWD with a W57/W58 (ordered a Toycoolrolla bell housing). I recently picked up a AE93 which was running a 4AGZE which I still be stripping soon and using the motor as the base.

Ultimately the end power level I would be aiming for is 350rwhp/260rwkw which from my research is achievable without going to crazy? However it will be going in very mild and then pushed further later on. But would rather buy smart the first time then buy stupid twice.

The motor I have is a Smallport 4AGZE as it has CAS and a MAP sensor.

First question is exhaust manifold, narrowed it down to the cheapy HKS cast copy http://r.ebay.com/YbiLD8 or spending more and going for something like http://www.ajps.com.au/parts/kelway_turbo_manifolds.php . From what I'm research my goals would be on the upper limit of the HKS copy so better off going straight for the Kelway straight up? Unless you guys think otherwise and I can just save the money?

Second question is inlet manifold, Morris is rwd drive. Options I've found are cut and shut the current manifold 4AGZE manifold, Cut and shut smallport NA 4AGE manifold (read somewhere it is better following?), Bigport NA manifold with adaptor plate. I guess I could also look at http://www.mrpltd.co.nz/product/336/...6v-plenum.html but that is a bit pricey and not sure it would be 100% necessary? Anything else to look at here?

Third question is turbo! Seems to be a million and one choices but think I've narrow it down and I should be looking at the GT2871R with an .64 ar turbine housing. Feel free to recommend anything else but for what I can tell the other highly recommended GT2860RS will be too small for my ultimate end goals?

Forth question is the motor itself, will a stock motor really handle my end goal? Should I pull it down and check all clearance and replace parts with oem stuff (or aftermarket if they are cheaper) as needed or is there anything that 100% should be replaced? Should I factor is a full rebuild? Or chuck it in and see how it goes? Anything that will 100% need to be done for my end goals like cams, porting etc? LET ME KNOW

Fifth question is the setup will be going in as stock as possible at the start that means possibly even the standard 4AGZE ECU (i know will need aftermarket ecu, injector, etc for my end goals) just wondering will I be able to get away with GT2871R with low boost (7psi? I know read that can go higher psi but that always looks like a small/less flowing turbo) with the stock ecu, injectors, etc?

Sorry for the amount of questions but any help/advice would be great!

[tomvale13]

Hey,

there are a bunch of threads which have the info you require.

Off the top of my head Bazda, CaseyG, trdee (maybe..?) and a few others have all gone down this path, and I'm pretty sure there's a 4age thread as well.


Give the search tool a go, or even try searching using google for 4age info on toymods.

[deviot]

Hey,
there are a bunch of threads which have the info you require.
Off the top of my head Bazda, CaseyG, trdee (maybe..?) and a few others have all gone down this path, and I'm pretty sure there's a 4age thread as well.
Give the search tool a go, or even try searching using google for 4age info on toymods.

Been searching and reading for a while now but I will look more specifically there build now, Thanks!

[trdee]

Many ways to skin a cat. You can do it all on stock stuff if you want, or you can run higher spec bits here and there and the engine won't have to work quite as hard to achieve the power goal. Either way works

Basic recommendations as follows, with options in bold:

Stock internals
Stock headgasket, TRD headgasket for slight bump in compression and metal headgasket winningness, or aftermarket HG of your choice. Doesn't matter a great deal at this level, just don't get ACL as they have a history of failing.
ARP head studs
Smallport or bigport head. Smallport will give better performance (stock). Bigport is easier to set up in RWD form due to factory RWD bits. Uprated valve springs. Cams if you want to get to 260kw more easily (kelford turbo cams recommended)
Borg warner EFR 6258 turbo
Bigport RWD plenum if you choose a bigport head, otherwise cut n shut a stock smallport plenum, or get an MRP inlet manifold (not necessary but will make the engine breathe easier)
Bloody good single plate clutch, otherwise a tilton twinplate unit
Exhaust manifold - various. Generally the more you pay the better the quality. The better the quality the better the spool and top end power. Look for something with equal length runners and a proper merge. An external gate is not a bad thing either. Better boost control and better top end power (in my experience)
EFI system and intercooling to suit. The general rule here is cheap shit ends up costing you more in the long run. E85 will get you to your goals MUCH more easily but is not strictly required


There's a million and one threads about this, taken via a million and one routes. You can build a pretty epic engine, or leave it more or less stock. Either option will get you to your goal. The difference will be in how drivable the car is, how fast it spools, and how hard it needs to be pushed to make the power.

[tomvale13]

stock GZE seem to be a pretty tough piece of kit, money saving option could be to just make sure it's in good health then slap on all your power-making accouterments - if it goes bang then you rebuild it to handle what you're trying to make..?

Vitos (trdee's) thread shows an approach using stock gze + cat-sucking turbo from memory..

Where theres smoke, there's Vito?

[deviot]

Many ways to skin a cat. You can do it all on stock stuff if you want, or you can run higher spec bits here and there and the engine won't have to work quite as hard to achieve the power goal. Either way works

stock GZE seem to be a pretty tough piece of kit, money saving option could be to just make sure it's in good health then slap on all your power-making accouterments - if it goes bang then you rebuild it to handle what you're trying to make..?

Thanks for your input!

So looks like Stock GZE with a couple things (ARP's) will handle however looks like I should be at least pulling down the motor and making sure everything is in spec and healthly.

Going to stick with the small port head as I have that already, manifold looks like I'll do the cut and shut as looks like it's not 100% needed rather save the money. However I will get a NA 4AGE and modify that, if it's cheap enough.

Will look at cams but can at least do that later on when I start cranking up the boost.

Any verdict on running the GT2871R on low boost with the stock ECU/Injectors? That way I can get the car running with the basics done and get it engineered. Then done the track start cranking up the boost with the same turbo upgrading the ecu, injectors, etc then?

[trdee]

You can do it as long as you don't go overboard on the boost, and do your due diligence with watching AFRs etc. Plenty of people have run turbos with stock GZE electronics for a long time without much issue in the past.

[Big T]

Do it once, do it properly. At the very least, get all the mechanical stuff done once on the stock gze ecu and then upgrade just the electrical side of things later. Order yourself a set of ACL race bearings asap as well. They are out of business now but there will still be new, old stock on the shelves but who knows for how long.

I would recommend a full rebuild of the engine just to be on the safe side. GZE pistons are fairly cheap and very reliable. I have around your power figure (252rwkw) and am running a rebuilt 7 rib bottom end with 8.9 gze pistons, stock linished/close honed rods, 1.6mm hks headgasket, lightly ported bigport head, ARP headstuds/rod bolts, 272 deg cams, big ally intake plenum and a HKS gt2540 0.64 ar which is the 2876R equivalent. Max boost is set at 22psi. I did have a hose pop and leak (pipe was too short) during the power run so it made the 252kw at 5800 rpm. I expect it to be closer to 270-280 with the leak fixed now. Oh, i am also running E85.

MRP turbo manifold is a very nice equal length mani and reasonably priced. I will be getting one of these when I build the next motor.

Eddie.

[samkaos]

I had a cast HKS manifold and GT2860RS (0.86 rear), 280cams, most I could get was 280hp at wheels on 98 and 23psi. That was the limit of the turbo and my injectors (550cc with heaps of fuel pressure). Was a stock small port head with valve springs, cut and shut FWD manifold.

2871 might get you what you want, or 3071 with T25 0.64 rear?

It was hard to drive (Idled at 1300 with a lump, no power under 5000 then snap).

I broke a stock ZE piston, 18psi it was fine, 23psi it broke a ring land (they are hardened cast pistons and high silicon to reduce expansion, so not as strong as CP etc). Rods should be able to take it, but for the cost, I put in Spool rods and Arias pistons. Did have to grind the block a little as the rods were hitting the bottom of the cylinders, but it was worth it. Sold the car 4 years ago and that engine is still going strong (I drove it again end of last year).

[deviot]

I had a cast HKS manifold and GT2860RS (0.86 rear), 280cams, most I could get was 280hp at wheels on 98 and 23psi. That was the limit of the turbo and my injectors (550cc with heaps of fuel pressure). Was a stock small port head with valve springs, cut and shut FWD manifold.

2871 might get you what you want, or 3071 with T25 0.64 rear?

It was hard to drive (Idled at 1300 with a lump, no power under 5000 then snap).

I broke a stock ZE piston, 18psi it was fine, 23psi it broke a ring land (they are hardened cast pistons and high silicon to reduce expansion, so not as strong as CP etc). Rods should be able to take it, but for the cost, I put in Spool rods and Arias pistons. Did have to grind the block a little as the rods were hitting the bottom of the cylinders, but it was worth it. Sold the car 4 years ago and that engine is still going strong (I drove it again end of last year).

While eventually I will want more (pretty sure everyone always does) but the first stage will be to fit the motor in fairly standard however with a turbo, next would be to get a after market ecu and start cranking up the boost, etc. However I have also lower my end power goals to 300rwhp (as even that would be fast enough for me). My main question is do you think that the HKS manifold (or the eBay copy in my case) would get there or I would be better of going straight up for something like the APJ manifold?

[mattysshop]

going to suggest something different...

use a BT 20v head (stock), and run aftermarket ecu straight up..

turbo - something with a 60mm wheel at least..

have a read of - http://www.mrpltd.co.nz/ and Bazda (owner) AE92 Levin GTZ... 610hp from one of his 1.9L stroker kits... there are MANY in NZ using 20v heads on stock, non rebuilt 16v GZE bottom ends (become an interference engine) easilly making close to 300fwkw..

seriously you can pretty much buy a complete build from MRP - that will acheive that and more.. especially if you personally are not going to be machining/clearencing etc yourself..

the recipe seems to be 20v head, with big boost (25-30psi) on a decent size turbo (not a little T2 entry baby - not saying these can't make power.. but really just go bigger......)

[deviot]

going to suggest something different...

use a BT 20v head (stock), and run aftermarket ecu straight up..

turbo - something with a 60mm wheel at least..

have a read of - http://www.mrpltd.co.nz/ and Bazda (owner) AE92 Levin GTZ... 610hp from one of his 1.9L stroker kits... there are MANY in NZ using 20v heads on stock, non rebuilt 16v GZE bottom ends (become an interference engine) easilly making close to 300fwkw..

seriously you can pretty much buy a complete build from MRP - that will acheive that and more.. especially if you personally are not going to be machining/clearencing etc yourself..

the recipe seems to be 20v head, with big boost (25-30psi) on a decent size turbo (not a little T2 entry baby - not saying these can't make power.. but really just go bigger......)

In two minds at the moment. I have been looking into this, more so buying this stuff www.toymods.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=83240 however the seller says he has someone after it but if it falls thorough he will call me.... But I was thinking doing as you said and using the current gze bottom end I have already. However means more money upfront as I can't put it in mild as I wanted with the stock ecu, etc.

The other idea was to lower the power goals and go a bit cheaper on the build overall. If I get bored later on worry about it then but there is so much more work for this project then just the motor so the budget is getting blown out everywhere

While you said few running a non rebuilt gze, would you think it would be worth the effort to pull it all down and check all the clearances?

[trdee]

it all depends on your budget. I am one of those guys running the 9A kit, along with a blacktop 20v head, but by the time i'm done the entire setup is going to cost over 12k

relatively speaking, that's pretty damn cheap for such a comprehensive build. its still a lot of money though....

[SHEPPO3930]

going to suggest something different...

use a BT 20v head (stock), and run aftermarket ecu straight up..

turbo - something with a 60mm wheel at least..

have a read of - http://www.mrpltd.co.nz/ and Bazda (owner) AE92 Levin GTZ... 610hp from one of his 1.9L stroker kits... there are MANY in NZ using 20v heads on stock, non rebuilt 16v GZE bottom ends (become an interference engine) easilly making close to 300fwkw..

seriously you can pretty much buy a complete build from MRP - that will acheive that and more.. especially if you personally are not going to be machining/clearencing etc yourself..

the recipe seems to be 20v head, with big boost (25-30psi) on a decent size turbo (not a little T2 entry baby - not saying these can't make power.. but really just go bigger......)

the recipe is correct! 20v head and a gze bottom end = cheap power producer!!

[samkaos]

I didn't like the driveability of mine. For a street car I wouldn't go bigger then 264 cams. Mine would jerk on the freeway cause of the big cams.
The cast manifolds are great, I would use one again. The only issue is the turbo sits back a bit so the dump pipe doesn't have much room, and you have to run CAS as I think the distributor cap and leads are in the way.

The 0.86 rear housing made the turbo nasty. No boost till 5k then snap. Held all the way to the 7500 rev limit tho (I don't like to rev high boost engines past 7500). 0.64 rear housing would be much more drivable (full boost 4200?) but might drop off above 7?). I used to loose drags because of takeoff and traction issues.

I rekon a stock S15 silvia T28 is sweet on a 4A. its 0.64 rear so it doesn't come on too late, ball bearing and good for 320hp at engine which should be super reliable and drivable.

I now run a 3SGTE. I had a 3071r and it was great till it broke due to abuse and age, so I got a GTX2867r, what a piece of crap! Needed 6psi more boost to make same power as the 3071, and no driveability difference I can notice.

I don't know much about Borg turbos, but people say good things about the twin entry ones.

True 20V heads are good, but the compression gets a little high with black top heads. I know with NA stock motors, there is only about 5hp difference between a small port and a silver top engine (silver tops make about 145hp at engine, I have seen stock small ports make 140hp).

The main letdown on small port heads is the stock cams, there just tiny. You can get 20-30% more power just from cams on a stock head.
I got a pic of my setup somewhere (with a custom intake manifold that made no difference over a stock manifold).
I have used XF falcon TBs a few times with stock manifolds (plate welded to the front). They are pretty big but getting hard to find these days.

Stock ECU should handle 15psi (they cut at 16 I think), not sure how they go with cam changes tho.

I use NGK BCPR7s for 10-18psi. I hate platiums etc as I have cracked several sets for no reason, but I use BPR8EIX for 20-35psi with no issues.

W box should live forever on a 4A, I have never broken one even with my 450hp 3SGTE doing 11s