20v and aftermarket cams...

[eightsixboy]

Have you thought about going turbo?

I know its a "cop out" but its easy power. To get the most out of a set of larger cams you are going to have to have an aftermarket ecu anyways, and cams are around $600+, which you could buy brand new universal TD04 Kinugawa or similar, perfect for a low boost 4AG.

[Just1n_mc]

I'm want to keep the car N/A because I'm planning on competing in the 0-1600cc class of the super sprint championship. Also being in a FWD I don't really want to go down the turbo path.

[Just1n_mc]

So I've had a good look at the head and cams this afternoon but I can't tell if the inlet cam can run VVT or not? Having the other engine in my car I haven't got a standard inlet can to compare mine to to see how the system works.

How can I check if it will operate with the VVT system? The guy I got the head off says it can't but the guy who made the cams said it could providing it didn't interfere?? Is there a visual way to check?

[101gze]

The system works by advancing the inlet cam relative to crank. You said you have a Toda intake cam pulley? if you are going to use this, VVT is irrelevant, you will need to dial the cams during the build then adjust the timing to suit your desired power band through the pulley.

Make no mistake, VVT is a beautiful thing, its imperative for the 20v to perform as designed.

Yes, there is a visual way to tell if VVT i.e inlet advance is possible with your cam, you put plasticine on your piston and rotate the engine. and you check it. If the indentations show enough room "gap" that the valve will not hit the piston, CONGRATULATIONS!

Now, DO IT AGAIN with the VVT/Toda pulley at MAX ADVANCE if you have enough gap in the doh to show the valve wont hit you can run VVT

Also, your EX cam may well run out of room as well, so its best to do the same actions with it.

If this sounds like a complete pain in the arse, its because it is, but the alternative is a bigger pain in the arse.
If it was easy, everyone would be doing it and everyone aint.

"The guy I got the head off says it can't but the guy who made the cams said it could providing it didn't interfere?"

OK, you need to elaborate on the guy you got the head off, what is this head? spec wise?

You might like to have a read of this: http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/...ton-clearance/

[Just1n_mc]

I was talking along the lines of how the system works. As I understand it the VVT solenoid activates and opens an oil gallery that feeds the VVT pulley altering the cam timing. After looking at the cam today there is a hole in the front of the cam to the pulley which I think is the feed to the VVT pulley but I don't know where or how the oil is fed into the cam to check if that is in place for the system to work.

Obviously i have the Toda pulleys which delete VVT but if the system is in place and I can make better use with the VVT then I'd use it provided there is clearance.

[101gze]

If you can show a pic of the end of the cam it would be easy to tell. All the cam makers use 20v blanks and the galleries are all the same across the range of blanks.
The Toda pulleys will still allow the advance that the VVT pulley offers, it just wont be variable, outside of manual adjustment.

[oldeskewltoy]

Well since this is the honesty thread...
I have NEVER found any of your information useful in any way shape or form. You are a keyboard warrior with a head full of useless information which you insist on referring to as FACTS and a dangerous little dremel tool. It is my belief that ANY head you have ever touched would have benefitted from being left totally standard as it left the Toyota factory.

There I said it...

Now Xero may have not used the duration as a reference to the cam size and its affect on performance as it is traditional to do so - but - IF you know anything about cams then you know that lift and duration are not totally independent of each other and in the course of the preceeding discussion it was actually LIFT which was being asked about... I will leave the technicalities at that and leave google to educate you on the rest - that or you can simply run your mouth off with your internet opinion again...

Cheers,
Jason

insult me all you want...... the question has still not been answered.....

As to 20V coping with more duration... what proof or evidence do you have of this? Or is this just your internet opinion??????

FACTS......... do you have ANY???????

[101gze]

Now Now...you need not harass others about internet opinions..banter or bullshit, some are still waiting for your real world truths on this:

(seven years on)


Post Title:
Posted by: oldeskewltoy at 11:14 AM 8/2/2008

Zurich - Are you planning on street driven, or competition?

What are Swiss emissions laws? Are there any? The 20V was never imported to the USA... so in all forms it is not legal. What are your laws like???

ok... laws, and licensing aside.... it really depends on your use. 16V formula Atlantic engines are the known N/A power kings for 4AG engines. They produce about 240+ or- hp at about 12000-13000 rpm. The Formula Atlantic head is a wonderous piece of engineering that needs the proper work to perform properly.

Talk about rainbows and unicorn jizz..

The fact! that there is an immense difference in component stress from 8000 to 9000 and a further mass of rotational strain from 9000 to 9500 your claim just jumps 10000rpm and...that only for the lame Initial D Takumi tard 11000rpm... Hell Your straight to 12000-13000 Revolutions of the minutes.

So, can you actually tell us which it is, does this mechanical incarnation of THOR's penis make this illustrious number at 12000 or at 13000

I know I know...its only 1000 rpm...sheesh who's countin but I guess you'll tell us its ohh... you know..it doz it somewhere inbetween or sommat... u knowww..

And because your all about the truth, whole truth and nuttin but the truth so help you Bunta, you have the dyno read out of this uber gyro and a video of it you were saving for a special occasion yeah?

Heres the special occasion.

[Just1n_mc]

If you can show a pic of the end of the cam it would be easy to tell. All the cam makers use 20v blanks and the galleries are all the same across the range of blanks.
The Toda pulleys will still allow the advance that the VVT pulley offers, it just wont be variable, outside of manual adjustment.

Is it going to be worth running VVT? My thinking is that to get the VVT to work I'm going to have to compromise some top end to get the lower/midrange power where if I am to run the Toda cam pulley although I'll sacrifice some low end I should gain more top end. The car only does track work.

[oldeskewltoy]

Now Now...you need not harass others about internet opinions..banter or bullshit, some are still waiting for your real world truths on this:

(seven years on)


Post Title:
Posted by: oldeskewltoy at 11:14 AM 8/2/2008

Zurich - Are you planning on street driven, or competition?

What are Swiss emissions laws? Are there any? The 20V was never imported to the USA... so in all forms it is not legal. What are your laws like???

ok... laws, and licensing aside.... it really depends on your use. 16V formula Atlantic engines are the known N/A power kings for 4AG engines. They produce about 240+ or- hp at about 12000-13000 rpm. The Formula Atlantic head is a wonderous piece of engineering that needs the proper work to perform properly.

Talk about rainbows and unicorn jizz..

The fact! that there is an immense difference in component stress from 8000 to 9000 and a further mass of rotational strain from 9000 to 9500 your claim just jumps 10000rpm and...that only for the lame Initial D Takumi tard 11000rpm... Hell Your straight to 12000-13000 Revolutions of the minutes.

So, can you actually tell us which it is, does this mechanical incarnation of THOR's penis make this illustrious number at 12000 or at 13000

I know I know...its only 1000 rpm...sheesh who's countin but I guess you'll tell us its ohh... you know..it doz it somewhere inbetween or sommat... u knowww..

And because your all about the truth, whole truth and nuttin but the truth so help you Bunta, you have the dyno read out of this uber gyro and a video of it you were saving for a special occasion yeah?

Heres the special occasion.

I'm not fully understanding exactly what you are saying....??? that an Atlantic engine doesn't(didn't in 2008) twist to 13,000? They use too, but do to development, they don't need to spin that high anymore... they twist to about 10k-11k. OR that they don't make 240hp, some do... some make more...

this one makes more....

[trdee]

Now now ladies, let's not start getting nasty in here.

Justin - you also need to consider that the VVT pulley will only advance/retard the cam by a specific amount and as you go to a more and more aggressive cam, the set points when the VVT is on or off will be further and further away from the ideal for your cam. There will be a point where you will be sacrificing top end power and possibly not have that great of a bottom end powerband either, because the retard/advance points on the VVT will just be too far out to suit your cam. I am not sure what duration etc is the threshold but it is something to consider as well. I think it has been discussed somewhere before. Some google-fu may help you find this info.

[Just1n_mc]

Now now ladies, let's not start getting nasty in here.

Justin - you also need to consider that the VVT pulley will only advance/retard the cam by a specific amount and as you go to a more and more aggressive cam, the set points when the VVT is on or off will be further and further away from the ideal for your cam. There will be a point where you will be sacrificing top end power and possibly not have that great of a bottom end powerband either, because the retard/advance points on the VVT will just be too far out to suit your cam. I am not sure what duration etc is the threshold but it is something to consider as well. I think it has been discussed somewhere before. Some google-fu may help you find this info.

That's where I'm at with it as well. In an ideal world you could make the VVT work for you with larger cams but due to the on/off nature of it and the fact it's set a I think 30 degrees means that its going to be a compromise between a car that makes decent power throughout the rev range or a car that is lazy down low but really pulls up top. If it was a daily driver I think that trying to retain the VVT would be in my best interests but being a track car I think the loss of power lower in the range will be worth it for the power gain up top.

[trdee]

indeed. for a track n/a 20v, you should really never be below 6000rpm (a C160 will help your cause here if you dont already have one). And if you don't give a shit about what's happening under 6k, then I say you get yourself some fat cams and some adjustable cam gears and forget about vvt....

[fixeruperer]

you can pin the vvt sprocket so it still retards/advances but not to the amount it normally does. so ya can still run huge cams and keep it slightly vvt.

[Just1n_mc]

you can pin the vvt sprocket so it still retards/advances but not to the amount it normally does. so ya can still run huge cams and keep it slightly vvt.

Have you got any more info on this mod??