7AGTE Vicroads EPA compliance (factory management options)

[PrettyCoolWagon]

Hi guys, a previous thread diverted from it's title, ..originally asked about turbos and quickly got onto the issues of getting a 7AGTE to run on mostly factory parts and pass EPA / Vicroads compliance.

Please have a quick look at the previous thread to gain an understanding of where I'm coming from.

http://www.toymods.org.au/forums/tec...evs-7agte.html


Here's the deal.

I’m in Victoria and will be getting my vehicle engineered and EPA tested.

It’s a corolla 4wd wagon. I run a facebook page for them, linked in my signature below.

It’s my first complete build from the ground up.
I’ve been in touch with an engineer and researched ADR, Vicroads and EPA compliance.

In Vic, after market ECU’s aren’t allowed nor is anything that can be adjusted or re-mapped after testing like fuel pressure regulators, boost controllers, adjustable cams or piggy backs.

So the challenge is how to make some serious streetable power and pass emissions tests no sweat.
I tend to abide by the law but I didn't fully realise just how strict they are in Victoria.. so this has raised a heap of questions, (9 specific questions to be exact )

...apologies in advance and hope you can answer most of them.


So let the 7AGTE various toyota parts challenge begin…

Trying to figure out all the tricks possible to make it look stock-ish and get the bastard to run without too much hassle.

Fuel tips were discussed in the previous thread so no need to comment unless you have something new to add.
I've got some scientific research papers on a whole range of late model Australian delivered vehicles and how they performed in emissions tests.
So that's given me some ideas about which cat converters and mufflers to run.

I know this is a bit lengthy but it could be good info for anyone else out there who really wants to pass engineering and EPA testing in Victoria.


The bottom end is built with forged components and oil squirters and hardened steel dowels in the 6-bolt crank/flywheel. So there's no issue handling the power. It's all about the tuning on factory parts.
The head is 16v small port, decked and ported with 3 valve cuts.

I have 3 head gasket choices (standard, MLS or steel) resulting in comp ratios of 9.2:1, 9.3:1 or 9.4:1
Using ARP gear all-round.
Q. 1) Which HG do you think would be best using factory management parts?

I have a Garrett T25 ..but am also considering using the ballbearing IHI RHF4B VF13 Twin Turbo similar to what's used in the 7AFTE Corolla Sportivo & Subaru legacy.
Q. 2) Who knows which one is better the Garrett or IHI, ..in terms of spool time and maximum flow?

Injectors are a choice of either GZE 365cc or new aftermarket 430cc
At the moment I’m using CAS with DLI.
Q. 3) Is Coil-On-Plug better or worse with a factory ECU?

Q. 4) What can the stock 4AGZE ECU handle in terms of injectors and ignition?


I have the choice of either big or small port ECU and loom.

If I run the bigport ECU I can use a 3SGTE AFM to help with tuning
(..and maybe sneak in a HKS combo: piggy-back with control computer and ignition booster later on)
OR
I could use the smallport ECU with Toyota map sensors from a 4EFTE or 3SGTE
Q. 5) Which ECU do you think would run this set up best and why?

Q. 6 & 7) To manage a 7AGTE using factory parts, I’m wondering if 3SGTE sensors & ECU plugs could be grafted on to a 4AGZE loom so the 3SGTE ECU could run the engine? ..if so, who in Melbourne could do this?

Q. 8 & 9) As I can’t run an aftermarket fuel pressure regulator, I’m wondering how an upgraded fuel pump will affect a system that only uses stock parts? ..What fuel pump would suit this factory-ish build the best?

BTW... A friend ran standard fuel pump on his 4agte using T3/4 turbo @ 12psi without issues, ..but he was using aftermarket ECU
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

Thanks for your opinions.

Please keep it experienced based ..and factual.

[Hen]

If you're trying to get it engineered I'd try to keep everything as stock as possible, both not to change emissions, and also to not arouse your engineer's interest/suspicion.

But to answer your questions I'd also suggest that your first step should be to speak to some/all of the engineers listed at Vicroads and hear what they will allow. I spoke to Rowan Carter from Cartech/IDB in Richmond many years ago about a 4AGZE Sprinter and he was very helpful explaining the restrictions.

[knightrous]

IMHO, the best way will be to sneak an aftermarket ECU into the case of a stock ECU and then you can work with a workshop who has the emissions gear to get your tune right so you pass EPA with flying colours. Something like a Haltech Sprint 500 is pretty damn small and could more then likely be fitted inside the stock ECU case. You could even sneak a tuning lead out a couple of the spare pins on the stock loom.

While hodge podging a selection of random toyota factory parts together (4AGZE ECU, 3SGTE AFM, 3SGE Injectors etc etc) might provide a compromised but working solution, your more then likely going to fail your emissions since all of these parts are not tuned or made to harmonize with each other.

[PrettyCoolWagon]

You're right, fitting parts together and trying to tune it is THE BIG CHALLENGE.
E10 with a little Isopropyl alcohol and a decent OEM cat should take care of alot of the emissions. (if there are any)
Couple of club guys suggested the same re: hiding the ECU, but if you kill/seriously injure someone and the cops find out you're screwed.


Because I have to run stock ECU, I keep using the factory 4AGZE & 7AFTE's and budget builds to plan from.
Concluding the 4AGZE ECU reaches it's limits under high boost loads, so it makes sense then to go for higher compression / lower boost. Suits street.
Higher comp also has the benefit of burning fuel better which will be good for emissions.

Factory GZE boost is 8psi
The MLS gasket will bring me up to around 9.4:1 which is close enough to the 7AFTE Sportivos 9.5:1
I'll be using a factory FMIC from a Ssanyong which has a good factory look, sits behind the bumper discreetly and will shit all over the GZE top mount in terms of size, cooling & flow.

This page has a chart on Compression ratios vs. boost resulting in a peak boost figures under load.
http://www.xcceleration.com/cr-boost%20101.htm
Using 8psi as a rough guide with 9.5:1 CR = 14.7 peak boost figure under load.


Still undecided about ECU
I'm leaning towards smallport 4AGZE ECU with Toyota 4EFTE turbo map sensor.
Thinking an OEM fuel pressure regulator from a 3SGTE would also suit.
Still not sure about 365cc vs. 430cc injectors


Hen,
heard Rowan Carter's name mentioned at a Toyota club meet a couple of days ago.
Rowan will be the next engineer I approach.

[jono]

aftermarket ECU + cable tie + factory ECU cover?





....worked for me.

[Hen]

Hen,
heard Rowan Carter's name mentioned at a Toyota club meet a couple of days ago.

It could possibly have been me that mentioned it.

As for getting done by the police if they find an aftermarket ECU, while I'm not 100% sure of the law, I thought they had to be able to show that the non-engineered modification caused the accident before you got into serious problems. They may be able to fine you/send you to get an EPA test, but I don't think you will be sued/sent to jail. Definitely worth checking for yourself though.

Just another option from left field is to put it on gas. Then you don't have to worry about emissions at all. It has other tuning benefits too.

[Duk]

This page has a chart on Compression ratios vs. boost resulting in a peak boost figures under load.
http://www.xcceleration.com/cr-boost%20101.htm
Using 8psi as a rough guide with 9.5:1 CR = 14.7 peak boost figure under load.

These sort of things are very, very presumptuous.
If you have an engine that achieves 100% volumetric efficiency at peak torque, adding 8psi to it will have much more effect to the dynamic compression ratio than if 8psi was added to an engine that only managed 80% volumetric efficiency at peak torque.
Static compression numbers are like quoting weight distribution numbers, it's far from being the full story.

Still undecided about ECU
I'm leaning towards smallport 4AGZE ECU with Toyota 4EFTE turbo map sensor.
Thinking an OEM fuel pressure regulator from a 3SGTE would also suit.
Still not sure about 365cc vs. 430cc injectors

This whole shooting match is compromised, but how about just using a later GZE MAP sensed computer and scaling the injectors up slightly to match your percentage increase in engine capacity?
That might not even be required, going by how rich the early GZE computers ran the standard engine (AFRs in the 10:1 range). Your engine is about 10% bigger than a 4A, so the standard injector/tune combination would supply enough fuel for that increase in capacity (I had to reduce injector open time by more than 10% in my eEmanage Ultimate to get full throttle AFRs down to 12.5:1 on my early GZE, back in the day)

At the end of the day, you'll have to make a decision and start testing and measuring.
I would be MUCH more inclined to have a complete original set up, rather than try and mix and match ECUs, AFMs and injectors.
If say a factory MAP sensed GZE system can run the engine with decent full load AFRs, can go into close loop during steady state throttle, but suffers from some knock at higher loads, rather than retard the base ignition timing, which will have negative effects on your emissions, add some water injection.

[PrettyCoolWagon]

Thanks Duk yours is the kind of experienced response I'm looking for.

This will be a full Vicroads ADR EPA compliant car. To that end I also have to figure out a rear disc set up.
As mentioned, it's my first complete build from the ground up. To date, I have no tuning or wiring experience, ..but I'll get there.

Just to counter, I agree I was being presumptuous, that's why I used the words: "Using 8psi as a rough guide"
In which case what would be an ideal CR for this set up?
I have a Garrett T25 ..but was also considering ball bearing IHI RHF4B VF13 Twin Turbo

The fact is I have to start somewhere and appreciate all the feedback.
The suggestion of starting with a base MAP GZE system and tuning from there is a good one.
Engineer has also suggested water to air, not FMIC.

So any tips on W2A are welcome.

What does close loop mean? and is ignition timing tuned using CAS and timing light?

[Duk]

Engineer has also suggested water to air, not FMIC.

So any tips on W2A are welcome.

Why water to air 'cooler over a front mount? The WTA unit will be living in the engine bay and can suffer pretty badly when the car has been allowed to sit for a while, with a hot engine bay. WTA intercoolers have packaging advantages as well as having less overall volume that needs to be pressurised (so less turbo lag), but compared to a decent size front mount, I'd doubt they will have any more cooling ability, both are cooled by air flowing through a core.

What does close loop mean? and is ignition timing tuned using CAS and timing light?

Closed loop: When the engine management system pays attention to the exhaust gas oxygen sensor. This only happens during steady state driving like cruising down the street or highway), when the engine is at correct operating temperature.
When in closed loop, the ECU can 'learn' about slight variations of the requirements to achieve stoichiometric AFR (14.7:1) and apply a correction to achieve it. Note that any correction applied would be applied EVERYWHERE! So if the ECU determined that it needed to apply a 5% correction (compared to what is programmed into the map) to the injector open time to achieve stoichiometric, then that 5% correction will be applied at (proper temp) idle, cruise and high loads.
This correction ability is to allow the computer to deal with slight variations of the fuel system over time, like slightly dropping fuel pressure or slightly dirty injectors, etc.
How effective the Toyota closed loop correction is, is beyond me. But I wouldn't be expecting it to deal with much. 10%, maybe..........

Yes, the crank angle sensor sets the base ignition timing (when the ECU is set up to set the base ignition timing). Set it up correctly, with a timing light on either 1 or 4's ignition lead.

[PrettyCoolWagon]

2 of us are doing this build at the same time, both AE95's, both 7A engines. The other guys up in Sydney. We know there'll be some differences between the states reg's ..but pooling our engineering notes is proving helpful.
His engineer 'suggested' w2a. I'll be talking further with Melbourne engineer, ..but don't know much about w2a so thought I'd ask.

So 14.7:! is the perfect (stoichiometeric) Air Fuel Ratio the ECU aims to maintain?

Ok I'll get to hands on tuning down the track.

Just got the bottom end and head back.
I'm looking for well reasoned or verified advice on head gasket thickness and turbo selection.
***

Not to discredit the advice of starting with stock set up and tuning from there. I think that was sound advice, ..but just to be clear, I didn't decide to include 3SGTE AFM and 4EFTE MAP sensor off the top of my head, these were items used in other 7AFTE and 4AGTE builds using stock parts.

From there I figured a little bigger would help the ECU, such as matching low impedance top feed injectors around the 380cc - 390cc mark and a factory 3SGTE FPR or rising rate.

Happy to be corrected and guided, ..just prefer well explained advice from people who have tried similar things with real world results.

[Duk]

So 14.7:! is the perfect (stoichiometeric) Air Fuel Ratio the ECU aims to maintain?

During cruise conditions, when at correct operating temperature (no additional cold engine fuel), yes, 14.7:1 is the AFR that gives the most complete burn of fuel and cleanest emissions.

Not to discredit the advice of starting with stock set up and tuning from there. I think that was sound advice, ..but just to be clear, I didn't decide to include 3SGTE AFM and 4EFTE MAP sensor off the top of my head, these were items used in other 7AFTE and 4AGTE builds using stock parts.

From there I figured a little bigger would help the ECU, such as matching low impedance top feed injectors around the 380cc - 390cc mark and a factory 3SGTE FPR or rising rate.

Happy to be corrected and guided, ..just prefer well explained advice from people who have tried similar things with real world results.

I tried a 3SGTE AFM on my supercharged AW11 years ago and it wouldn't work without significant signal modification. In fact, I never kept it, I just returned to my Mazda AFM housing (same size the 3SGTE), with the original GZE circuit board in it and continued using my Jaycar Digital Fuel Adjuster. It was actually easier to use the DFA and the Trust Emanage Ultimate (which can modify load sensor signals but I only used it to intercept the injector signals) than get the EMU to correct the AFM's signal, but I only road tune

Remember that the fuel side of things is only half of what the load sensor does. It also has a huge influence on the ignition timing.
So if you put a bigger AFM on an engine, it will show a lower load signal to the ECU for a given air flow. Now you might be able to get slightly bigger injectors that flow near enough, to get the right fuel flow for the given lower injector open time, to allow the engine to run decently.
BUT(!!!) because the ECU will always be seeing a lower load than what is really happening, the ECU will deliver MORE advanced ignition timing. And that extra advance may be enough to cause severe knock!
This is why I suggest keeping sensors and ECU's together. Unless you are running out of sensor resolution (which will happen and does happen surprisingly early in the early AFM equipped GZE systems) and have a means of tuning the signal before it goes to the ECU (and even then, I'd only recommend an interceptor tuner like an Emanage Ultimate), you'll be opening up a can of worms.

[PrettyCoolWagon]

Cool, will just have to see how we go.

[Sam_Q]

if you have a different ECU then I can't see you getting in trouble in an accident because the ECU didn't directly cause it. If you welded a strut together and it failed which caused you to hit a car head on then maybe.

I happen to know someone who will very likely pass you with an aftermarket ECU, I don't know how but he has done it already. Also why not club reg?

[PrettyCoolWagon]

No club reg on this one, it'll be daily + track.

Have a few of these wagons now.. club reg planned for one of the others. (4age20v)


Is a wide band O2 sensor and AFR gauge legal so long as I mount the guage below the dash?

Has anyone had any experience using a 'gruntbox.'?

Given that the 1.8L will be drawing in more air for a start plus turbo on top of that, I'm guessing lean out could be an issue and the gruntbox might be a discreet / useful mod to help with lean out..
http://www.gruntbox.com/

[Duk]

Interesting. Simplistic, but interesting.