Microtech LT10s: No AFM and "Matrix" Mode

[Rhyno]

Hi All,

Noob EFI question.

Yes I have searched, post's and threads, yahoo'ed and googled... and got sfa except breif mention that "Matrix" mode is for fine tuning.

The short story:
Always screwed around with Carby's, this is my first EFI conversion. SV21 Camry, 3sfe <---3sge, Gen 1. Ordered Microtech Lt10s with X4 ignitor box, 4 bosch ignition coils and hand controller. Took to auto electrician to get the injector plugs replaced and the ECU installed.

Came back next day to have a chat with him about his plan of attack. He said he was going to remove the 3sg AFM, run the engine without it and tune the ecu in "matrix" mode. Queried its operation, econermy and power, and he said it would be a much better result on all accounts.

Now I have spoken with my housemate (a former HSV mechanic) and some other mechanical mates I know, and they have told me MAF-less tuning is not uncommon on a lot of V8's.

My understanding is that when the AFM is in use it is sensing the flow, temp and humidity of the air entering the engine, and adjust the fuel map to suit. WITHOUT the AFM, the ECU does not check the AFM values, and just monitor the other sensors (EGO, CAS, Knock, etc, etc) to calculate the map. Is this correct?

If this is the case how is it possible for the ecu to adjust properly for power and econermy?

Does the Matrix mode make this possible, by A LOT of fine tuning.

I can see how you could get an engine to work without one, just wondering on how accurate a tune you can get?

The goal is a camry that hauls arse, but still has reasonable econermy off WOT.

Any input will be apprecited.

Kind Regards,

Ryan

[CrUZida]

The Microtech (like all aftermarket ecu's) uses a MAP sensor instead of the stock AFM.
To compensate for airtemp monitoring, you need to install an Air Temp Sensor (usually a GM/Delco one).

By matrix mode I think all he means is its tuned via a combition of TPS and MAP/RPM, which is the normal way of doing it.

[MWP]

Matrix mode is Microtech's lame attempt at a 3D fuel map.
Non-matrix mode uses a two main 2D maps and a few correction maps to tune the fuel.
Ignition timing is always done with two 2D maps and a couple of correction maps.

Queried its operation, econermy and power, and he said it would be a much better result on all accounts.

Well he'll be wrong.
Yes, youll have more power if tuned correctly, but youll loose economy... and probably a decent amount of it.
Microtech's do not have the tuning resolution, decent idle control or closed-loop mode, and a few other features to get good fuel economy (these features being standard in factory and newer aftermarket ECUs).

Also be prepared for some pretty average drivability (bad idle, poor cold/warm starts, poor throttle pump response, etc) from the Microtech, even with many many hours of tuning on a dyno.

Sorry, but Microtech's are pretty much the worst aftermarket ECU there is for a daily driver car

[Rhyno]

FML

Thanks for the input guys, I had a feeling this would be the case.

So Microtech are crap for daily drivers? WTF, and I thought buying Austraila made could only be a good thing... China/Seppo land here I come ergh

Well thanks for answering my questions.

New questions:

Looking for a good air tewmp sensor; would this do the trick?
http://www.efihardware.com/products/...sor-Delco-14mm

Since I have just invested $1.5K (plus installation) on

pretty much the worst aftermarket ECU there is for a daily driver car

and I have an 18RGU that is under going a turbo conversion, will be street registered but not daily driven (aiming for around 400-500 hp) in my Corona.

Would it be a decent choice for this application?

And piss the Microtech out of the Camry and use something more econermy freindly?

[MWP]

Yeah, sorry to give you the bad news

Basically Microtech are still selling ECU's that were designed almost 10yrs ago, and hasnt changed much since.
They majorly lack features compared to newer ECU's.
They are still OK for racing cars, but are pretty horrid for street cars for the reasons i mentioned before.
MT also give crap after sales support, and youll need to send it back to them for some configuration changes. Changes which most other ECUs handle in software setup.
The only thing MT's have going for them is that they are cheap. Well parts are, the prices of the hand controller & laptop adapters are ridiculous considering there is only $10 worth of parts in them.

I have one in my GT4. It works "ok", but thats only after almost 12 months of continuous tweaking of settings.
There are things i still just cant get right due to the MT's limitations
Ive tuned as much as possible for economy without loosing drivability.
I get ~14L/100km driving normally around town, which isnt bad compared to a GT4 with factory ECU, but i know with a decent aftermarket ECU it would be a lot better.

As for the second part of your question...

This is another reason why MT's are crap.
They are sold to you setup for a specific type of engine.
To use the MT on a different type of engine with different crank/cam/dizzy triggers youll have to send the unit back to MT, and have them reconfigure it. Of course, they will charge you for this, and take xx weeks to do it.

As for the temp sensor, yes, thats the one.

[Duk]

So Microtech are crap for daily drivers? WTF, and I thought buying Austraila made could only be a good thing... China/Seppo land here I come ergh

LOL! There are plenty of other Aussie ECU's available. Adaptronic, Haltech and EMS all make very well priced computers that will do a great job (when tuned) of running a street car engine. They are much better priced than any Yanky stuff too.

***I laughed like fuck a few weeks ago when I saw an Ebay add for an EMS 8860 "selling because I've changed to a Microtech because that's what my tuner is familiar with (or words to that effect)."
Changing tuner would have been a much better course of action than that downgrade ***

[Rhyno]

Its all good, better to know the bad news than to be left scratching!

10 years old huh? Oh well, it might be a nice introduction for me, as this will be my first go at tuning my own vehicle it may be good to have something without all the bells and whistles... for now.

Now to buy that sensor and have some words with my tuner

[CrUZida]

10 years is pretty close.
I bought my LT8S about 7 years ago (2004). The 'S' series had just been released.
Since then only the LT10S has been released, which is identical to the LT8S but with 2 extra outputs.

And the LT8S is basically just an LTX8 (previous model) with the internal ignitors removed, and a few minor changes

[MWP]

Its all good, better to know the bad news than to be left scratching!
10 years old huh? Oh well, it might be a nice introduction for me, as this will be my first go at tuning my own vehicle it may be good to have something without all the bells and whistles... for now.

Actually its the other way around
Even though they are "simple", they are quite hard to tune, especially as the manual/documentation is very lacking.
There is plenty of settings on the MT pretty much have unknown effects because of this.
The handcontroller is also difficult to use (the buttons "bounce", and up goes down, etc), and the PC software isnt much better.

There used to be a Microtech support forum which i got quite a lot of help/info from.
It was closed mid last year

[Duk]

They do make a nice, solid well price 4 (and 6) channel ignition module, tho.

[Rhyno]

Ha-ha... oh well...

Used Microtech because I had that recommended to me by two drivers up here, and their tuner...

Looks like I need to find a new tuner, someone who is not stuck in the stone age.

Thanks again,

Kind Regards,

Ryan

[Duk]

Looks like I need to find a new tuner, someone who is not stuck in the stone age.

Sounds like an opportunity for you to become the tuner

[Rhyno]

Sounds like an opportunity for you to become the tuner

You know - thats a really frickin good idea..... I already have a restricted electrical licensce (for 240V) and im going back to uni soon to study industrial electronics..... and I have a test vehicle..... and an ABN...

Thanks for the idea Duk, + rep

"You must spread some rep around before giving it to Duk again"

LOL

[MWP]

Agreed
Buy a Wideband O2 sensor/gauge (you must have this!), and a MT laptop adapter and you are on your way.

Starting tuning with an NA engine is good too as itll be far more forgiving than a turbo/sc engine.

[Rhyno]

Thanks MWP,

your right about the pricing, $150 for the software and a frickin adaptor? Should come free with the ECU... bastards!

Any brand of Wideband Sensor/Gauge you would reccomend?

Kind Regards,

Ryan