Custom Sumps - Ideas and Inspiration

[ed]

check this site for horizontal pickup plate pics:

http://www.seight.com/baffle.html

[roadsailing]

had a look at my spare engine, the inlet cam cover does seem to fit on the exhaust cam. probably a good idea to grind down the sparkplug cover bolt lugs on the side, but they are useless anyway.

i think i'll use two inlet cam covers on my next engine.

[myne]

Has anyone ever done an electric dry-sump setup?

What I mean is say 2 moderate pressure, decent flow efi fuel pumps, to the oil tank, and a flexible steel oil line from the oil tank to the side of the sump, and another flexible line internally to the normal fuel pump.

Assuming there was some sort of detection for if the pumps died with a big fuckoff light. To warn the driver, do you think it could work?

[takai]

had a look at my spare engine, the inlet cam cover does seem to fit on the exhaust cam. probably a good idea to grind down the sparkplug cover bolt lugs on the side, but they are useless anyway.

i think i'll use two inlet cam covers on my next engine.

Yeah, one of my problems there is that i actually use the spark plug cover bolts to mount the SR20 coils. Ill probably end up cutting of fthe stock PCV and welding it up and instead welding a pair of Speedflow bosses on the covers and doing everything that way.

[horse]

I currently have an ST205 sump lying around that i would like to use later on, i'll probably be getting a windage tray as well (similar to the one TurboRA28 has) but was curious whether some trap doors would be of benefit. keep in mind this is for a FWD layout.

I may also make up a plate to cover the lower part of the sump pan so that it encloses the pickup.

Cheers

Oil Sump

[dave368]

I currently have an ST205 sump lying around that i would like to use later on, i'll probably be getting a windage tray as well (similar to the one TurboRA28 has) but was curious whether some trap doors would be of benefit. keep in mind this is for a FWD layout.

I may also make up a plate to cover the lower part of the sump pan so that it encloses the pickup.

Cheers

I spoke with the engine builder for a rather fast corolla rally car here in Canberra and the only modification that they do to the ST205 sump is a place a very small piece of angle underneath the oil pickup so if/when it gets hit, it will push the oil pickup up and leave a very small gap between the pickup and the bottom of the sump. The first time is happened, they managed to destroy a motor because the pickup was blocked.

I believe that a lot of the oil surge problems were resolved in the ST205 motor as long as you put it in the same angle as it was designed to go (i.e. so the bottom of the sump is parallel to the ground). If you still want to make mods, go for it.


Takai
I spoke to Clint with the 3sgte down there in SA and the minor mods they did was limited to keeping the pickup as close to the bottom of the sump as possible. I had a trap door sump last year (similar to the top photos but a little neater ) and still managed to start to delaminate the bearings.
I don't know if the 4A suffers from it, but the 3s tends to fill the rocker covers up very quickly and it can starve the pump for oil as the return system isn't the best on the early gen 3s motors and it doesn't get back to the sump quick enough. Do you run a restricter in the head/block to feed the head with less volume of oil?
Cheers,
Dave

[takai]

I
I spoke to Clint with the 3sgte down there in SA and the minor mods they did was limited to keeping the pickup as close to the bottom of the sump as possible. I had a trap door sump last year (similar to the top photos but a little neater ) and still managed to start to delaminate the bearings.
I don't know if the 4A suffers from it, but the 3s tends to fill the rocker covers up very quickly and it can starve the pump for oil as the return system isn't the best on the early gen 3s motors and it doesn't get back to the sump quick enough. Do you run a restricter in the head/block to feed the head with less volume of oil?
Cheers,
Dave

Yeah, the original photos is a sump which was apparently off a Jim Richards (???) race/rally car. Which quite obviously has had a slight incident with a ripplestrip or rock.
The 4A doesnt suffer from the oil filling up in the head nearly as bad as the 3S. This is mainly due to the fairly huge oil drain down the exhaust side. It is in the range of 1" square, so im not so worried about oil getting back to the sump.

With the 3S what a lot of people i know have done is drill a hole in the head between the 2nd and 3rd cylinders on the exhaust side and weld a boss to it with a large (-10 or -12) fitting running straight back to the sump.

[dave368]

With the 3S what a lot of people i know have done is drill a hole in the head between the 2nd and 3rd cylinders on the exhaust side and weld a boss to it with a large (-10 or -12) fitting running straight back to the sump.

Yeah good idea. We were just worried about the excess heat from the turbo destroying things and also overheating the oil, so I've ended up going for the other option...a 3 stage dry sump with twin scavenge, it seems to have done the trick

It's amazing how much the scavenging side actually pumps into the return tank even at idle!

[IN 05 NT]

After talking to my head guy about his sump designs he highly recomends the pressed steel mesh, his reasons are that as oil flings off the crank in all directions, it hits the mesh and it directs it down to the sump

the oil is slung in that direction anyway? and if its going to hit the mesh its going in the right way anyway? (noob question )

i want to modify the sump in the celica as it has been attacked with a mallet to clear the steering linkages,,

have you guys got any tip for making the sump WIDER, not deeper or longer, just wider to use to of the space that is there,

(hmm, then you would get alot of surge on hard corners. ??? )

blake

[kingmick]

Yeah good idea. We were just worried about the excess heat from the turbo destroying things and also overheating the oil, so I've ended up going for the other option...a 3 stage dry sump with twin scavenge, it seems to have done the trick

It's amazing how much the scavenging side actually pumps into the return tank even at idle!

to anyone that is doing dry sump setup ! make sure that you use good mesh filters on scavenge line and epoxy mesh over the heads oil returns, this stops you loosing a dry sump pump if you have something break or a blowup! drysup pumps wear plenty with out steel getting in there. make sure dry sump inlet and outlets come in at an angle to the tank to spin the oil. then use a very good oil filter like SYSTEM 1 or oberge etc with a good bypass.
becarul buying secondhand lines as the owner might have had a blowup hence him selling them, little bits of steel and alloy get trapped in them and are virtually impossable to clean properly as they tend to stick into the rubber.
just a couple of tips!

[The Witzl]

This is all very very interesting information!

Takai - when i first pulled off the sump from my 4age smallport, i was impressed with the sump design and windage tray, especially the crank scrapers!! Something you just dont really expect to see on a normal factory engine.
Oh, and dont forget the extra breather/oil drain from the back of the head on the intake side either.

I definitely have to do something with the 18R-G, they suffer from oil pooling up in the head... so combined with the lack of baffles and a windage tray, its not hard to see why they so often run low on oil pressure (especially on those long right handers).

I was considering just a simple windage tray and a couple of baffles, along with some mods to the oil supply and/or drain to/from the head. These links and ideas certainly open up some proper science and design basics that i might not've otherwise considered.

.... i wonder if coke cans and hot glue would work well.....

[Toobs]

You're missing the windage tray... you need that as one of the stays from the pickup bolts to it.

A windage tray is (as you described) "a plate to cover the lower part of the sump pan so that it encloses the pickup."

[The Witzl]

Correct me if im wrong - but isnt the ideal situation where oil is in constant circulation and exists only on contact surfaces (bearings, gears, etc) and around the pickup?

Based on that, I thought that a windage tray also serves a purpose that it's name eludes to....

(according to Witzl)... it helps collect and condensate oil vapours in the crankcase, especially around the fast moving parts (eg. crank), and pool them back into the sump. It stops this "wind" circulating around the crankcase and spreading the oil vapour which would then condensate elsewhere and reduce the oil collected around the pickup, which is bad.

[takai]

Based on that, I thought that a windage tray also serves a purpose that it's name alludes to....

Fixed.

And that is one of the prime reasons, another is to stop oil slosh from hitting the crankshaft.

[LeeRoy]

have you guys got any tip for making the sump WIDER, not deeper or longer, just wider to use to of the space that is there, (hmm, then you would get alot of surge on hard corners. ??? )

Yeh have a look at the first pic in this thread is has a pic of a sump with wider sides which is whiat you said u would like. The sump pictured has hinges on the entry to the sides, and as you corner say to the right the hinge on the drivers side of the motor opens due to the oil behind it and the passenger side hinge shuts. What this does is keep the pickup submerged in oil by closing the outside cavity of the sump and then acts by keeping oil in the center of the sump.

- LeeRoy