T3 upper hat system - am I missing something?

[takai]

Top threaded bit is for a little cap to cap off the adjuster.
I use a cone spanner to hold the flats between the top hat and the camber top, and then yank it out afterwards.

Here is my post from the original forum showing the deflection:

Here are some more photos that i promised. These are setup on my HTS102s. Im still using some old junkyard nuts because I havnt had a chance to go out and get some others yet. This is pretty much how they will sit in the car, the only thing is i cant simulate 500kg ontop of them.


How the spacer/washer sits.


Cambertop Installed


From the side on.


A little bit of lateral movement, thats about 3* neg right there.

They really deflect buggerall. The system works.

[Rodger]

Ok I need to ask.

Looking at the picture above and at the start of the thread.

How does the strut turn with the top spring hat hard against the lower gold plate which is fixed in place?

Also did not the OEM spring hat slot down onto a couple of flats locking it to turn with the strut, then the top mount bearing sat onto a step in the spring hat and the nut locked the inner race to that step?

I always thought the top spring hat needs to contact the inner race of the bearing so it can turn as you turn the steering.

Regards

Rodger

[oldcorollas]

the top has has a flat thrust bearing built into it.
(the rusty lookin thing in Takais forst pic)
that is what allows the top hat to rotate.

the OEM bearings are much stronger in axial loading, as they were designed for that.

[Rodger]

Well there you go. Thanks oldcorollas. I can see that now that it has been pointed out.

Regards

Rodger

[HighLife]

hmmm anyone have Tokico HTS102 inserts?

I'm wondering if I have a problem with mine, after assembling everything they seem to be locked solid and there is no droop with 7kg springs even with engine and gearbox fitted to the car - if I bounce on the front end of the car I get very little/if any suspension movement?

Also how hard is the adjustment on them? The little grub screw winds out with no resistance but when winding it in it gets to a point where its suddenly becomes very hard - I havent tried forcing anything just yet as I'm not sure how its supposed to be?

I'll prob rip the struts out again this weekend to check them out but I am sure I could get the damper pistons to move before I put them in?

[oldcorollas]

are they not fully extended?
they only have about 100mm of full travel, so abotu 40mm droop and 60mm bump.

if they are not in the correct position relative to the springs, then they will not have movement.

are the springs preloaded? ie are they loaded more than just captive when on the strut?
with 7kg/mm springs, you should be getting abotu 3cm spring compression from free height? (900kg/4/7)

[HighLife]

When I put them together, off the car, I just wound the perches up until the springs were captive, so no they are not preloaded - maybe half a turn on the perch max. I didnt think too much about the no droop after putting them on the car as the engine was out and there was bugger all weight in the front of the car - but now with the engine/gearbox in nothing has changed - and like I said if I bounce on the front end with my body weight they dont seem to compress any? Its like something is binding up solid in the strut?

I will take them off this weekend and have a closer look, everything went together ok as far as I could see?

[HighLife]

The only other thing I can think of is that there was a washer that fitted under the gland nut and spaced the insert down a couple of mm, I didnt install it as I couldnt see that it was needed, I had the right height from spacing under the strut. Could this be a problem?

[oldcorollas]

probably not..

i wonder how much gas pressure there is in the struts? as that will add to the total force upwards.

i guess as a really bodgy calc..
900kg car, 50:50:50 weight = 225kg
225kg = 32mm compression

shocks have like 100-200psi gas in them? maybe 1" piston diameter? = say 50-100kg more force up

so 225-50 = 175 : 225-100 = 125
compression = 25mm or 18mm

with your weight (say.. 70kg?) you will compress a further 10mm.. just 1cm...

this also means that, you will either have buggerall droop (18-25mm)... or the springs will become uncaptive. if you "preload" the springs, you will have even less droop... that is the tradeoff for having high spring rates.

what you could do is jack it up, lower the spring perch and lower the car slowly, and see if the shock compresses....

[HighLife]

Yeah cool I'll give that a go tonight if I get a chance!

btw... where do I find a spring perch spanners cheap?

[Joshstix]

I actually do use vice grips or multi grips if there is no other way but the trick is to wrap the shaft with 2 layers of 5mm rubber before you clamp to them

cheers
linden

PS check if you can fit an allen key in the top of the shaft.

Yeah I use vice grips as well. I just protect the shaft with a length of garden hose split up the middle. I'm sure my neighbours never get suspiscious of why after a few hours of working on the MR2 in the garage I come out and cut a 4 inch length off the garden hose

[Hen]

On the original question, a friend was suspicious of the setup too and had a few chats with The guy who runs T3. Apparently they are supposed to run the alloy spring top cap (with the little needle roller bearings) hard up against the strut top as shown in the very first picture.

Apparently if you make spacers to put the load directly onto the spherical bearing in the camber top then the bearings flog out. However that's what I did anyway and haven't encountered issues yet.

Also Chokitos just adjust by winding in and out the allen key thing. All the wasy clockwise is full hard, then you can back it off up to 7 turns. With 7/5 springs I found 3 off F+R was good for the street, while 1.5 off F and 1 off R was good on track.

Hen

[HighLife]

Ok the struts arent locked up, the springs are just a lot stiffer than I anticipated! After winding the spring perches down the dampers compressed ok - I dont know how guys run 8kg+ springs if 7kg are this stiff!?

Now for the adjustment thing - I'm wondering if this has seize up if? The grub screw winds all the way clockwise with no resistance at all to a point and then its very hard to turn, I'm hesitant to force it incase I break the allen key or strip the grub screw? I managed to get about 1 turn where it feels like it might actually be adjusting something but I cant get it to go any further

[Rex_Kelway]

Sorry lads, but there is one thing really grating Rex's sack aboot these things.

The thrust washer sits perpendicular on the base of the strut top, right?

Bollocks!

Suspension moves, that's its very reason for existence, how it does its job. So as the lower control arm moves in an arc the strut will 'swing' at the top pivot creating differing angles with the strut top's mounting plane at the uppermost pivot. A spherical bearing in the coil-over case, the rubber bush in the standard format.

Surely if you use a large flat thrust washer it will rotate for steering, but will not pivot for suspension movement. Locking the strut solid with the top will just place huge loads on small areas of the thrust washer and strut towers when it tries to move.

They seem ill designed. Mankind has put people on the moon; Concorde could cruise with over 100 passengers at more than 2000kp/h; We can engineer vaccines for disease; The car is over a century old. Surely in its history with this much engineering expertise this idea would've cropped up long ago if it were of sound merit.

Unless there is something not evident from the pics.

Sorry, Like He said, these have just been chafing His man-veggies.

[Hen]

It doesn't click or feel like you're adjusting anything when you turn Chokitos. But it works. Clockwise til it gets a little firm is full hard. STOP THERE. Then wind back a number of turns to tune it how you like. It just turns like a normal screw, no clicking or "8way adjsutable" bullshit.

I agree with Rex that it seems dodgy having them flat against each other, but Mr T3 claims that the spring allows those couple of degrees of flex (and the top hat isn't snug on the shock shaft).

Hen