The Spray Painting Thread

[kremsra28]

that dont sound right to me either, usually 2k and 2pak are urethanes or epoxy's, altho not all 2paks or 2k use a hardner, basecoats dont, its usually just the primers, clears or 2k (solid non clear over base paints),

pls correct me if im wrong as im still only learnig also, i have only used 2k and 2pak a few times, and found it much much easier than acrylic, and takes less time too, i dont reckon i will go back to acrylic in any hurry.

krem

["Z" UTE]

that dont sound right to me either, usually 2k and 2pak are urethanes or epoxy's, altho not all 2paks or 2k use a hardner, basecoats dont, its usually just the primers, clears or 2k (solid non clear over base paints),

2pac, or 2k are short for 2PACK, ie. the paint is supplied in 2 parts, which must be mixed when ready to use. Part 1 is the urethane or epoxy, and the Part 2 is the hardener/ accelerator.

2K basecoats are simply suitable for overcoating with 2pac


pls correct me if im wrong as im still only learnig also, i have only used 2k and 2pak a few times, and found it much much easier than acrylic, and takes less time too, i dont reckon i will go back to acrylic in any hurry.

krem

krem, hope this straightens things out.

cheers Chuck.

[Z2TT]

Whats the difference between 2k and 2pack? isn't it the same?

Q.. Are all 2pac systems some sort of Urethane? so no enamel/acrillic is 2pac like a synthetic paint, the basecoat. Also does it have a tougher more resilient finish and hows shine like say if you want to paint a show car?

Q.... When painting with any paint in general, should you let each coat totally dry out... isn't there a theory that you should spray quickly after its still a bit wet so the new coat melts into the bottom coat and builds up better and looks better? Or does it have to be touch dry. Thanks.

Q..... At random points on my paintwork I see cracks, hard to describe but the pattern is like if you drop a tile on the floor and it cracks into a million triangle piecies, that's the type of cracks I have, not huge cant feel them but are visible.... noticable on quarters rear, boot so somebody must have resprayed it sometime..... Just wondering what could have been done wrong on the spray paint to cause those cracks.


As for my repairs, today I sanded back the coats with 800, then gave it about 3/4 coats of more paint and spraying on wetter this time, got better gloss with little bit of orange peel.

not sure if I applied the clear on too early, I waited about 45 minutes before putting clear on. Somebody told me to wait 3 days before putting clear on because if you put it on too early the gas from the previous coat will haze under the clear... true or not?

But others say do it within 24 hours otherwise it wont work.

Anyway I waited 45 minutes, then put on 3 coats of clear with quite a bit of overlapping between strokes, didn't want to go on fine went on quite rough with lots of the orange peel effect. When putting on clear I extended it even more so beyond original repair area then I did with the basecoat, good/bad ? My theory was it gives more leeway for blending in when you buff to help blend in more progressively with the rest of the panel.

Now how long should I wait before I can use cutting compound and polish to blend it all in?

Thanks. Oh yes and any comments on my procedure are welcome.

["Z" UTE]

Whats the difference between 2k and 2pack? isn't it the same? Same same

Q.. Are all 2pac systems some sort of Urethane? so no enamel/acrillic is 2pac like a synthetic paint, the basecoat. Also does it have a tougher more resilient finish and hows shine like say if you want to paint a show car?

A.2Pack has a more resilient finish. The gloss level from the gun is far superior to acrylic, however a lot of show car guys still use acrylic, lts and lots of it with lots and lots of sanding then a shit load of buffing. The large trucking companies paint all their trucks with Polyurethane 2pac, that is some really sturdy stuff. I used it on a car I did a couple of years ago.

Q.... When painting with any paint in general, should you let each coat totally dry out... isn't there a theory that you should spray quickly after its still a bit wet so the new coat melts into the bottom coat and builds up better and looks better? Or does it have to be touch dry. Thanks.

A.Apply each new coat as soon as possible, use the flash off as a guide. ie. when the gloss level or wetness has visibly decreased it is ready for another coat.

Q..... At random points on my paintwork I see cracks, hard to describe but the pattern is like if you drop a tile on the floor and it cracks into a million triangle piecies, that's the type of cracks I have, not huge cant feel them but are visible.... noticable on quarters rear, boot so somebody must have resprayed it sometime..... Just wondering what could have been done wrong on the spray paint to cause those cracks.

A.The paint was force dried either with air or lamps, the surface was dry but the solvents below were trapped. Eventually the solvents dried and that paint shrank, and formed the cracks.

As for my repairs, today I sanded back the coats with 800, then gave it about 3/4 coats of more paint and spraying on wetter this time, got better gloss with little bit of orange peel.

not sure if I applied the clear on too early, I waited about 45 minutes before putting clear on. Somebody told me to wait 3 days before putting clear on because if you put it on too early the gas from the previous coat will haze under the clear... true or not?

But others say do it within 24 hours otherwise it wont work.

Wait too long, and the paint will have to be sanded to enable a bond between the layers, observe the "flash off" times between coats of paint and any susequent coats of clear.

Anyway I waited 45 minutes, then put on 3 coats of clear with quite a bit of overlapping between strokes, didn't want to go on fine went on quite rough with lots of the orange peel effect. When putting on clear I extended it even more so beyond original repair area then I did with the basecoat, good/bad ? My theory was it gives more leeway for blending in when you buff to help blend in more progressively with the rest of the panel.

Orange peel would indicate that the can was held too far away from the surface.

Now how long should I wait before I can use cutting compound and polish to blend it all in?

Wait at least a week with the spray cans type of paint The harder the paint the better, before buffing


Thanks. Oh yes and any comments on my procedure are welcome.

I hope the answers I have provided come some way to a clearer understanding of how paints are supposed to work.

cheers Chuck

[crowncustom]

You can paint enamel based paints over Acrylic laquers but not the other way round,it fries the paint and it wrinkles up.
Cheers Brett.

[Z2TT]

Good information.

Actually I held the can closer this time, it was when i held the can far away I didn't get orange peel, but when holding closer i got a little bit of orange peel, or was I just spraying too heavy of a coat?

Q.. Back to the clearcoat, have you ever yourself experienced that "hazing" that some people talk of when respraying too early, so when the base coat is given a few minutes to dry it's ok to go onto the clear no need for waiting days like some people say to avoid hazing?

Q... You mentioned some people still chose to use acrillic on their show cars, about where you said lots of sanding, would they be sanding the basecoat, what I don't understand is how would the get the clear to tack on if they sand their basecoat to perfection?........ or by lots of sanding do you just mean sanding heaps on the clear only to get it smooth then buffing it?

Q.... Just wondering, ussually is it a common practice to sand the final layer on the basecoat before putting clear on just for an improved look or is a better finish/gloss achieved without sanding the final layer on the basecoat? Just the reason is on most paints i've bought it would ussually say "Use 500-800 Between Coats", So i'm wondering about that.

Q. I'm going to wait a week before buffing, Is it ok to use rubbing compounds like the orange stuff in the black Kitten tins, or should I use something very smooth, just don't want something to rip my clear right off.

Thanks.

[Z2TT]

Oh so you can't paint Acrillic over Enamel? Didn't chuck say acrylic was always recommended for touch ups on enamel?

Just did some google research and most people say Acrillic will not work over Enamel.

Also went on holts FAQ and it said Lacquers tend to lift enamel surfaces.


Chuck you mentioned if you spray Enamel over fresh acrillic it will fry big time... but I've read that it's ok to spray enamel over acrillic but not the other way around.
Not arguing with you but i'd just like to learn more, cheers.

As I'm now onto fixing up the lights on my soarer spraying the frames of the lights black using an enamel can then wanting to go over it with acrillic clear so i'm not sure whether I should or not.

["Z" UTE]

Oh so you can't paint Acrillic over Enamel? Didn't chuck say acrylic was always recommended for touch ups on enamel?

Just did some google research and most people say Acrillic will not work over Enamel.

Also went on holts FAQ and it said Lacquers tend to lift enamel surfaces.


Chuck you mentioned if you spray Enamel over fresh acrillic it will fry big time... but I've read that it's ok to spray enamel over acrillic but not the other way around.
Not arguing with you but i'd just like to learn more, cheers.

As I'm now onto fixing up the lights on my soarer spraying the frames of the lights black using an enamel can then wanting to go over it with acrillic clear so i'm not sure whether I should or not.

Acrylic has always been specified for touch ups on BAKED Enamel.

Any paint WILL work over any other paint provided that an Isolator or barrier coat is used between them. Sometimes a simple spray with acrylic primer will do the trick, other times not. An isolator is generally a substance that is neutral in reaction to the existing coat and the new coat. The Isolators I have used are thinned with metholayted spirits.

I have read all sorts of inforamtion on what can and can not be sprayed over a different substrate. My practical experience has shown Enamel to fry an underlying coat of fresh acrylic. Acrylic will also fry an underlying coat of 2Pac, when the 2Pac is very thin, or has been heavily sanded.

Buy gloss enamel, and you will have no need to apply a clearcoat.cheers Chuck.

[kremsra28]

krem, hope this straightens things out.

cheers Chuck.

yeah sort of, the paint guy at the shop i got said that 2k was basically a color that the hardenr was mixed in wit it and not suitable as a COB procedure, and 2pak was the system where you use COB (clear over base) and the hardner goes in the clear.

might be wat your reply meant but in different words??

as far as the acrylic frying up over enamel, i think its the thinners that reacts, as acrylic is mostly thinners, so if your unsure wat type of paint the vehicle has on it, it would pay to use an isolator (primer) or 2pak primer over the area to be painted in the new paint, it will seal off the old paint and stop the thinners getting thru to react.

i was also told a big no no was to put 2pak clear over acrylic as the hardner will harden up the clear and wont allow the acrylic thinners to evaporate,

i used to use 3m perfect it cutting compounds, but then i ran out 1 day and the only place i could get more stuff from was motors, they steered me to use ppg system1, it is basically all cutting and machine glaze in the 1 bottle, you just use different pads for the type of cut you want, lambs wool for harsh cut, yellow waffle pad for medium and black waffle for machine glaze, then if you get car out into the sun and you can see you missed a bit or not happy wit a bit its way easier to just change pads and it dont matter if you splash the compound on other parts of the car like it would if you had to change compounds, if you change compounds back to a cutting agent and you had machine glazed the whole car, it would show up where you wipe it off, then you would have to repeat the whole process, wit the system1 you just wipe the compoung off and it dont make any difference, plus it saves having 2-3 bottles of compound laying round (they are about $40 a bottle, system 1 was around $70 from memory), you use very little of system1, i have detailed quite a few cars wit just the 1 bottle and have enough left for a few more (around 8 to the bottle)

any1 else use this stuff??

krem

["Z" UTE]

Good information.

Actually I held the can closer this time, it was when i held the can far away I didn't get orange peel, but when holding closer i got a little bit of orange peel, or was I just spraying too heavy of a coat?

Cans can be plicks of things, it will just be a matter of trial and error and practice to get a good finish.


Q.. Back to the clearcoat, have you ever yourself experienced that "hazing" that some people talk of when respraying too early, so when the base coat is given a few minutes to dry it's ok to go onto the clear no need for waiting days like some people say to avoid hazing?

A. Hazing is generally caused by applying too heavy a coat in the first instance. My experience is on whole cars and whole panels, and I find that by the time I have painted an entire car, I can mix another batch of paint have a cuppa, and go straight back to painting, provided I start at the same point as the previous coat. Waiting for the paint to "cure" means you will have to sand it again.

Q... You mentioned some people still chose to use acrillic on their show cars, about where you said lots of sanding, would they be sanding the basecoat, what I don't understand is how would the get the clear to tack on if they sand their basecoat to perfection?........ or by lots of sanding do you just mean sanding heaps on the clear only to get it smooth then buffing it?

A. Generaly lotsa sanding on the clear coat is all that is needed, but the old school boys used to sand (600-800) between every coat. A long process, but the level of gloss and depth of colour was excellent. These guys were not using basecoat, but lots and lots of topcoat colour.

Q.... Just wondering, ussually is it a common practice to sand the final layer on the basecoat before putting clear on just for an improved look or is a better finish/gloss achieved without sanding the final layer on the basecoat? Just the reason is on most paints i've bought it would ussually say "Use 500-800 Between Coats", So i'm wondering about that.

A. If you have a good consistent layer of paint, there really is no need to sand before applying the clearcoat, unless you have let the colour coat "cure". So if you want to do the job quickly skip the extra drying time and sanding, and just apply the clear soon after the colour has flashed off

Q. I'm going to wait a week before buffing, Is it ok to use rubbing compounds like the orange stuff in the black Kitten tins, or should I use something very smooth, just don't want something to rip my clear right off.

A, Yes wait a week, then give the paint a rub with wet 2000, then you can buff it with a fine ctting compound folowed by a polishing compound, followed by a colour sealer, followed by a wax and buff. I do not know about the kitten products, but if it feels like beach sand between your fingers, it is way too coarse.

Thanks.

Hope this helps, cheers Chuck

[Cuzzo]

Quick question
is iso-free 2pak just as good as normal 2pak?

Id like to paint a car in 2pak but without all the vent gear

["Z" UTE]

krem, I also used the 3M product, untill I found "JUICE" about 35 bucks a bottle, and yep different pads for different cutting action. Works a treat.

You are dead right about the thinners being the main cause of the frying, an Isolator takes care of that.

2K and 2Pac/2Pak are one and the same, the colour is mixed at the shop with the different tints to achieve the desired colour, and the painter (you), mixes the 2nd part or hardener prior to application.

As far as COB or clear over base goes, a 2pac "colour" would not be suitable as a base coat, as these 2pac's are generally solid colours which can not be tinted to the same extent as a base coat colours. Base coats can have a huge array of colours, tints, flip controllers, pearls, mica's and flakes, that you just can not get in a 2pak solid colour.

That being said, of course you can apply a 2pac clear over a 2pac colour if you had the need. It would probably give a really deep gloss on a black.


cheers Chuck.

[willwal98]

Quick question
is iso-free 2pak just as good as normal 2pak?

Id like to paint a car in 2pak but without all the vent gear

The iso-free 2pak i've seen / used has all been more of an industrial grade paint. Good for fences and steel frames, not good for a shiney car. When I do have a car to paint I rent a booth, usually under $300.

[pac]

Iso free is very easy to use and forgiving to the inexperienced, its cheaper and safer to use. The down side is that it losers its gloss if not maintained not having the harmful isocyanates. Easy to rub and buffs up really nice gloss, but you have to keep the polish up to keep gloss. Really for the handyman and not used much in a "pro shop"

[Z2TT]

Hi,

Car turned out great that advice worked very well am surprised of the result with just cans, just some annoying overspray dust but hope that should come off with some 3m... Q... Should I use 3m compound to get rid of this overspray on areas that I didn't want it to get on, like it's overspray that got on my GOOD factory clearcoat so im thinking if i use sandpaper I might dig into the clear in attempt to remove the overspray dust, I recon 2000 wouldn't really dig into it but better safe than sorry since I'm getting some 3m stuff as yes my kitten is like wet beach sand.

More painting done today, I was painting the black frames on my tail lights which had faded. I only had Matt black the Australian Export cans which were Enamel, and I had my U-POL Acrylic clear, so that is why I had to use acrillic over Enamel today in order to get a gloss. When i sprayed the clear coat on i noticed it went pinholy but then pinholes slowly went away maybe one or two stayed, Q...is this a sign of frying or incompatible paints etc or not?

Q... Now that the Acrillic clearcoat has dried ok over the Enamel paint, does this mean all is well or will I just have to wait and let time tell if the paints are incompatible? Months, years?

Bit of talk about pearls Micas back there, I'm getting the notion that you cant use pearls/micas/metallics in a 2k system, but only one colour paints? Q... So do you have to use Enamel or Acrillic if you want metal specs in your basecoat or can it be done with 2k aswell?

Next project is a Celsior with some small chips on the front bumper where somebody has tried to use a paintbrush to touch it up, I hope to get rid of that and try do a blend in here. Q... Can i use normal automotive bog on the plastic bumper or is there special plastic auto bog and whats so different about the plastic bog that differs from normal one.

Q... Some repair guides state hitting the chip lightly with a screwdriver to get any lose bits around it to chip off until i cant get anymore to chip off before doing repair, should I do this?

Q... Do i need to spray prime over the bog i place over the chip or just sand with 800 and spray over?