Supercharging a 3T/2T-G Hybrid in TA22

[sillycar chick]

WARNING: BEFORE YOU POST A REPLY, I HAVE SEARCHED ON ALL THE FORUMS (OLD AND NEW) BUT HAVENT FOUND ANYTHING SPECIFIC ENOUGH.

Now that I have your attention, I also want to say I dont want to hear "forget that idea and put in a 1G-GTE" crap, cos Im female and I wont listen!

I want the plain, simple raw facts on what would be involved in bolting a SC12 or SC14 up to a 2T-G/3T Hybrid with twin side-draught solex carbs. And I dont wanna hear "just inject it" either, because I really couldnt be FAAARKKED with the wiring, ok! Thats the same reason for why I dont want to do a conversion either. I couldnt be bothered atm. Cos I hate wiring!

I really dont think it would be all that hard to mount or pipe up etc. but I am mainly interested on what to do about the carbys.

I know this is a take-off on ATOYOTA's thread "Forced induction and carbs" (im sorry! really!) but I really want the specifics to this engine and these carbies. I also want to know what boost will be acceptable with stocko internals, and with 8.9:1 (i have atm) compression vs 10:1 (i am thinking of changing to this) compression. And what sort of power I could get out of it without blowing it up or rebuilding with stronger internals.

I know it has been done before (more likely with injection though) so I want to hear especially from these people! And I also think it can be done quite cheaply.

[Norbie]

If you want to use your existing sidedraughts, you'll need a blow-through supercharger setup. That means a positive-displacement supercharger like the SC12/SC14 isn't a very good match; these are designed to be use with the throttle body before the supercharger, which obviously isn't possible with the sidedraughts.

If you're really afraid of those evil wires, I suggest you either look at using a centrifugal type supercharger (maybe grab one off a Commodore V6?) or ditch the sidedraughts and use a single carby in a suck-through arrangement.

EFI really is the best way to go though.

[YLD-16L]

Search for Tim Frost's TA22 which had an SC12(?) supercharged 2TG (injected). An immaculate looking car, there should be some info around on it before it became a 13BT powered TA22.

Firstly find someone who is clued up and prepared to tune your solexs and is able to set them up to handle boost - if no one near you can do this then there isn't much point as you'll get stuck at the end of the project.

Then find a diagram that clearly illustrates the layout of a supercharged setup with throttles post supercharger and learn.

Then you can start making plans for your plumbing, mounting brackets etc.

A LOT of info is available on the net in regards to supercharging an engine, use the principles you read about to decide what you wish to do with your setup and make an approxiamte cost of your project - then see if you're still keen.

I don't think this will be as "cheap" as you think

What you plan to do is one of those project that people usually do for shits and giggles or to prove a point - so unless you can do most of the work yourself it will be much more expensive and complicated in the end than going down a more favourable route i.e. fit a 1G or 4AGZE

[YLD-16L]

If you want to use your existing sidedraughts, you'll need a blow-through supercharger setup. That means a positive-displacement supercharger like the SC12/SC14 isn't a very good match; these are designed to be use with the throttle body before the supercharger, which obviously isn't possible with the sidedraughts.

True, but there are ways around it as a few of the MR2 boys on this forum have shown. But for an initial supercharging project it probably just adds more complications.

[Hen]

Or you can run the carbs blow through with a big blowoff valve on the IC piping between the SC and carbs (I think it is nick.parker who is running an SC14 pre-throttle with a blowoff valve like this)

However I think that you should confront your fear of wires and go EFI. It looks hard, but if you read the manuals and can use a multimeter then it becomes clear pretty quickly. Plus I'm sure you could lure plenty of helpers around with beer, or the thought of helping a girl work on her car.

Hen

EDIT - Some points were already made by YLD

[sillycar chick]

Ok, so I guess then using the solex's would really be a waste of time. Now that is cleared up, lets look at if I did go the injection route (which I have always considered, just unsure of the wiring - and I cant even use a multimeter!)

1. What differences are there in the wiring systems between the TA22 2T-G carb version and the TA22 2T-GEU injected version?

2. Honestly, what sort of power increase would I get out of supercharging it? This would mean taking into consideration what boost can I run?

3. I am currently running 8.9:1 compression, what would be better this or the 10:1 i am thinking of going with?

If people can help me out with these questions would be great, I can see the plan more clearly.

[Hokey]

PM NickZ as he has just converted his 2T-GEU to supercharged but now has a 20V in his KE30. his car is in the members rides section.
GL

[myne]

Unless you're going to be getting all the EFI bits straight off a 2T, you're really going to be better off doing a conversion.
Sadly the 8 valve engines of the past are simply not worth the expense to get more power from.
No matter how much cash you throw at it, it's not going to come close to the cost/benefit ratio of a 4agze or similar.
You're already talking aobut going EFI. That's going to cost you between 1 and 2000$.
You need EFI pumps, probably bigger fuel lines, all the manifolding, sensors, ECU, maybe a surge tank, a fair bit of wiring, and that's just to get it running. If you get the stock EFI ecu, you're stuck with NA because it wouldnt have been mapped for boost. So that means you need an aftermarket rig. That's atleast 500$ second hand, or more likely ~1200 new.

And that's before you've even bought the SC you plan to use. Odds are you'll need to source a crank pulley to drive the SC, which also means you need water pump and alternator pulleys - all so you can run a 5rib v-belt. Then you need mounts, manifolds, intercooling, the list goes on.

At the end of it, you can expect - assuming you've got a 175mm pulley -, a fairly comfortable 10psi. It'll be lucky to get you 90kw at the wheels. To be perfeclty honest, I wouldnt expect the stock pistons to last that long unless you've got a great tuner and a knock sensor.
Also note, you're VERY unlikely to be able to increase the compression to 10:1. Modern engines can do that sort of compression and run boost, but modern combustion chambers are designed a lot better than they used to be. AFIK the 2T is a "Hemi" chamber, which means there are no squish areas. Squish is very important in preventing detonation.

A bog stock 4agze with the bog stock ecu can be had for ~1500$. Factor in that you should be able to sell your current engine + gearbox for ~1000, and that's pretty decent.
Sure it'll be a pain to make engine mounts, and find a RWD gearbox, and get a new tailshaft made. But those things are relatively straight forward. They take time, they take money, but they're not that difficult. Wiring will be a bit frustrating sure, but you'd have to do that anyhow with the 2T. Same with the fuel lines. With this setup, your baseline is 90kw@wheels, with a more likely 100-110kw coming relatively easily.
To top it off, you've instantly got an engine that's capable of handling surprising amounts of boost with no internal mods.

People have done all sorts of interesting things with the 4agze - the most interesting IMO was Cameron's Datto 1000 on these forums that has a turbo blowing 10psi into the stock supercharger, which then compresses it to 23psi.

You can imagine what that's like to drive.

[bassy]

there is nothing wrong with a blow through or draw through supercharger setup. basically you get what you pay for so if it starts to lean out or something stupid, dont go adding carb+supercharger to expensive motor.

A lower cr is going to be better for a boosted engine so what you have now is fine, although i am not that familiar with t series engines. Of course you can run huge amounts of octane with a higher cr to work, but that aint gonna last long either.

You could try and make a manifold to suit the twin solex's in a draw through setup just gonna depend on the space you have. can also change to a holley or something to get the fuel through the sc into the engine. You can use carby fuel pump for this, dont need bov, intercooler, efi pump etc.

Problem with blowthrough is the air intake temp will get hot so a water injection system is a must.

theres heaps more info, too much typing 4 me

bassy

[Hokey]

Myne: she would already have roughly 75kw atw's already so i think 100kw would be achievable and with alot more low down power.
Sillycar: I understood that a hybrid using stock pistons and headgasket gets around 10.5:1 comp anyway?

[WeekendWarrior]

hey ther lovly ladie if you were to do a suck through carby setup on the supercharger either using one of your original solexes and just jet it up or use a holley with a downdraght setup sitting on the charger then sucking through the charger and then blowing into the intake manifold 10psi with good fuel and a rising rate fuel regulator you we will b good to go. it would be safe to run on 8.9:1 cr. there really isnt that much involved in doing it aslong as you have the time.

if you want more info ill chuck some diagrams and some more info on for ya

cheers

[Norbie]

1. What differences are there in the wiring systems between the TA22 2T-G carb version and the TA22 2T-GEU injected version?

The 2T-GEU uses fuel-only engine management, which means there is a smallish wiring loom from the inlet side of the engine to an ECU which you usually mount in or near the glovebox - and that's all there is to it. This is assuming you use the factory ECU though, which I imagine may be difficult to get hold of these days. An aftermarket ECU is obviously much better, but that comes down to budget more than anything!

2. Honestly, what sort of power increase would I get out of supercharging it? This would mean taking into consideration what boost can I run?

Yes, there are many factors which determine how much power you'll actually get, and boost is one of them. Have a look at how much power the 4A-GZE boys run with a stock supercharger and that should give you an idea of what you'll be looking at. Same size engine with the same supercharger, power can't be too different at similar boost levels.

3. I am currently running 8.9:1 compression, what would be better this or the 10:1 i am thinking of going with?

8.9:1 is definitely more boost friendly. It would be possible to do with 10:1 pistons but you'd have more problems keeping detonation under control, so it's better to stick with the lower compression.

If you decide to go down the EFI path I'm sure you won't have any problems finding fellow Toymodders to give you a hand, especially if you're in the SE Qld area.

[ace]

Have a read of these:
American Supercharged 22R (with carbs)
Tim Frosts 2TGZEU (Injected)
Ace

[sillycar chick]

Sillycar: I understood that a hybrid using stock pistons and headgasket gets around 10.5:1 comp anyway?

That seems to be the case with most other engines I have seen, but I used a 0.55mm shim with a std head gasket and it came in at 11:1 according to my measurements and calculations. Then I tried a 1mm shim and got somewhere around 8.9:1. I am waiting on a 0.8mm shim from ACL, should bring it up to around 10:1. I am starting to suspect the head may have been shaved previously. The 2T-G engine I stripped had 88261 on the head, but 88220 on the timing cover, so I think it was tinkered with.

I was planning on trying to get a little more sting and still keeping it N/A, but I still dont know what Im doing with it all yet. I would love to go the whole shebang and build a sick turbo engine, but that would set me back a couple of grand just for parts alone. So at the moment whilst I have minimal funds, I am trying to increase power using all the parts I already have. Thats why I am looking into the supercharger. But if I do get injection, I would still be around the $500 mark for injection and supercharger I am guessing, which is a lot more achieveable for me atm than a few grand!

[Invid]

If you do decide to go the EFI route, this may help you. They are some wiring diagrams of a TA22, 2TGEU and my personal Favourite the TA22 with a 2TGEU wired in. These are great diagrams as they are sooper clear, none of these crappy photocopied blurry ones. They damn well should be; took me days to get them right.

http://khi-santh.canberracelica.org/files.html