3S-GE (Gen1) ping...

[Dale]

I've been following this one for a while.. I'm with the timing belt having slipped a tooth theory.

Mine gets 600ks to a tank mixed city/highway.. I thought that was about normal?

[Andrew162]

Ok, I haven't done anything SUBSTANTIALLY different to get me a 600km run out of a tank. I only stick 50L back in the tank when it's empty. Because I live up here on the North Coast now means there's no traffic lights and more free runs of 80-100km/h (but also more wildlife to hit too). I was getting ~550km avg around Sydney when driving down there.

So down the checklist...

Ok, fuel filter - check.
Timing belt - check.
Distributor - check.
Fuel pump - check.
Plugs - check.
Compression not too high to cause pinging - check.
No vacuum leaks - check.

Again I'll say that it only happens when the engine is WARM and when the throttle is marginally depressed, so it appears as more of a static ping than a load ping.

[RobST162]

oh ok, yeah 550 is about right for me.. yay for north coast!

dude can you check your TDC with the crank pulley and cam shaft positioning? That will show you if your 1 tooth off.

though, warm only seems to me like carbon - but since you've cleaned it out! weird. Go the 98 and see what happens. 98 doesn't even work out that expensive 'cause I get like 30ks more per tank minimum

[jonra23]

What heat range are your spark plugs compared to standard?

regards
Jon

[urantia]

yep as i asked earlier and as rob has pointed out have you got the timing belt on properly? crank at 0 mark, both cam gears lined up perfectly?

only becuase without that confirmed any timing you have set won't be correct..

[Andrew162]

Let's work out some simple maths here.... ummm, timing belt was replaced about 3 months ago, and ping started only about 3 weeks ago... am I missing something here or is the timeline like more than 2 months out? Wouldn't the ping have started from the time the belt was put on?

Sure I can check it out, but I'm sorry it just doesn't make sense.

Edit: it wouldn't be running properly if it had slipped a tooth I would think, and I guess it would be a noticeable slip if it had..

[Andrew162]

What heat range are your spark plugs compared to standard?

regards
Jon

heat range is 6 I believe, comparable to stock...

[urantia]

Well i have had them slip teeth before. Its possible. (tensioner pulley spring was the cuase thus the pulley was tightened up with the belt not at correct tension).

I just didn't see your confirmation with the timing belt. But hey sometimes you have to just eliminate everything off the list of what could be cuasing your pinging. you'll get to the bottom of it eventually.

[urantia]

No ECU codes?
Might have something to do with the ESA, altho that is just for advance so probably not going to cuase pinging if it wasn't fucntioning properly.

Any chance we can get a sound recording of the pinging motor?

[Andrew162]

that's a bit of a long-shot mate, I don't have any hardware to do that, no cam-corder or anything. I don't have any ECU error codes either, I've tried a few times to extract them, but all I've gotten is code 24 after I've replaced the fuel filter last week, and I started the engine without anything connected (AFM, coil, etc. so I could get access to the filter).

[urantia]

was working on a st162 today, was going thru the toyo manual and something else cuaght my eye that could cuase your pinging, the EGR valve stuck open? just thought i'd mention it incase you hadn't checked it out.

[Dale]

Andrew it would still run if it was out a tooth, I'd imagine a tooth wouldn't be more than 10 degress or so? Since you can adjust the cam gears by 5 degrees (I think?) at a time by removing the lock pin and moving it around to the next hole, which a belt out by a tooth would be similar amount I'd tend to think..

I know it probably sounds unlikely because of how long ago it was changed over, but you only need to take the top timing cover off to check it, which realistically is only 4 bolts I think.. for the effort you've gone to trying to get rid of it by other methods it would be well worth checking, even if it does prove to be fine.

[Andrew162]

Well your logic in undeniable Dale, and I thankyou urantia for your effort as well. Might check this out tomorrow, how hard is it to take off the top timing belt cover? I know it's close to the strut tower, that's all..

How would I be able to tell if the EGR valve was stuck open or not? Would there be any methods at my disposal which would not event in a trip to the mechanic's shop?

[Dale]

It's not real hard to take off, you'll need a 10mm spanner and preferably a 10mm 3/8th inch drive socket - that way it will fit in the small void you have to work with. I think there's 4 or 5 bolts and take note that the top two bolts are longer than the rest. It's just a basic unbolt then wiggle it out - you might need to jack up the engine a bit to get the right angle to some of the bolts and to get the cover out.

I'm not 100% sure or not whether you can get to the lower bolt up near the brake MC with the engine mount still in or not, I'm thinking you probably could. If you've got to take the engine mount out you'll need a long (600mm or so) extension and a 14mm socket to get the two nuts underneath out, take the one 14mm bolt out of the top, the 17mm bolt out of where it bolts into the chasis and you can then get it out of the way - make sure you put a jack under the engine if you're taking that out just to take the weight.

You should be able to get to all the bolts with the rest of the stuff in there without a worry.

It's a pretty easy process, might take a while if you haven't done it before but providing you have the right tools (LONG extension) it's relatively easy.

Do you know how to check the timing marks? There's raised dots on the inside cam wheels which line up with marks on the back of the timing cover, using a white out pen to mark the tooth on the wheel, and the top of the cover makes it a lot easier to see if it's lined up.. especially on the intake cam since it sits pretty low and a bit out of sight. Obviously the notch out of the harmonic balancer will just line up with 0 on the timing cover!

[Andrew162]

Well timing belt is fine, anyway if it were that then it wouldn't idle properly, I wouldn't be able to set the base timing accurately and I wouldn't have the kind of response I have out of the engine now.

It's almost confirmed that right now the engine needs overhauling, so I'm wondering if anyone has any tips on what's better - rebuilding the 1st Gen 3S-GE or sourcing a complete 2nd Gen instead? Remember that I'm living on the north coast here and engine shops (suppliers for complete engines) are thinly-spread, but engine rebuilders/refurbishers are common enough. Actually I think I might have to rebuild this as it is, now I think more on it I don't have anyone around here to hock-off a 3S-GE engine to.

As for the ping, well it's still there or at least it was this morning until I shoved some STP fuel injector cleaner through it. That seems to have quietened the ping for now, but I'll have to find out how long this will last for.


edit: urantia, I'm getting the EGR system sussed-out the same time as I'm getting the power steer pump changed over this week, we'll see what the outcome of that is.