Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 71

Thread: Long rod 4A or how to destroke a 7A

  1. #31
    Forum Member Grease Monkey
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    67

    Default Re: Long rod 4A or how to destroke a 7A

    Yeah, it has a real crank pulley



    Those rods fit are found in the E15ET, E16s and E16i out of early Pulsar NX, around the beginning or the 80s, should check the years but they were available in the first gen and also at the beginning of the second gen until being replaced by GA16i and CA16DE... oh and if you want to have custom piston made, GA16 rods are the same except 3mm longer (exactly the same as E15 N/A not turbo) and will bolt in place except that the stock piston will arrive above deck. If you're in for custom piston make the pin 19mm and move it up 3mm higher on piston and they you'll get an even better r/s ratio.
    KE20 1974 <- Sold -> Thread
    AE95 1990 <- 4A-GZE daily driven wagon...

  2. #32
    Forum Member 1st year Apprentice
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    46

    Default Re: Long rod 4A or how to destroke a 7A

    Just as an aside, I've given this concept a lot of thought for an all out sports racing engine. Specifically, using a 7a block, the large rod pin 4A crank, custom carillo rods to the Sentra specs, fully ported 16v head with stock valves, Toda 304 degree cams @ 10mm lift, Toda under bucket springs & shims, super light weight custom pistons for a 11:1 CR, with long ram tubes on ITBs. No expense will be spared in this endeavor. Will this combination live @ 10,500 -11,000 in a racing environment? If not at this level, what would be the maximum for longevity and any input as to potential HP would be greatly appreciated.

  3. #33
    R.I.P. Pentamax Chief Engine Builder Adsport's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    wa
    Posts
    3,271

    Default Re: Long rod 4A or how to destroke a 7A

    How can you say " no expense spared " and then say you plan to use stock valves ??

    And why the heck are people so obsessed with 4A motors and 11,000 RPM ? Why do you need that much? I have yet to hear from a person who has a legitimate reason for wanting to rev that high.
    My fat AW11 poobarge - 4AGZE (retired)

    My Corolla ! - 4AGTE

    KP61 - 4AGE

  4. #34
    Toymods Events Secretary Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    NSW
    Posts
    10,253

    Default Re: Long rod 4A or how to destroke a 7A

    If you really wanted a "no expense spared" N/A race motor based off an A engine, you would use:
    - MRP billet stroker kit with 15:1 compression ratio
    - MRP crank girdle and dry sump system
    - Worked BT20V head, big cams and ferrea valve kit

    Run that on E85 and make somewhere in the region of 200kw at the wheels whilst revving it to around 9-10krpm. THAT is a no expense spared race motor... and will cost you in the region of 10-15K all up. Or you could get a standard 4AGZE motor, slap a turbo on the side, and make the same power for about a quarter of the price, and you wont have to rev it further than 7000rpm either..


    Anyway this is getting offtopic, sorry guys.
    1988 AW11 9A-GTE - Turbo Missile | 2004 Elise K20A - N/A Screamer | 1984 MA61 1JZ-GTE - 80s cruiser
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

  5. #35
    R.I.P. Pentamax Chief Engine Builder Adsport's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    wa
    Posts
    3,271

    Default Re: Long rod 4A or how to destroke a 7A

    Quote Originally Posted by trdee View Post
    If you really wanted a "no expense spared" N/A race motor based off an A engine, you would :

    -Call Hasselgren
    -Empty wallet
    - Receive crate motor


    Anyway this is getting offtopic, sorry guys.
    fixed the typos for you mate !
    My fat AW11 poobarge - 4AGZE (retired)

    My Corolla ! - 4AGTE

    KP61 - 4AGE

  6. #36
    Toymods Events Secretary Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    NSW
    Posts
    10,253

    Default Re: Long rod 4A or how to destroke a 7A

    if you had a caterham or something else that weighed 500kg maybe. in anything else it would be kinda pointless considering the stratospheric power band
    1988 AW11 9A-GTE - Turbo Missile | 2004 Elise K20A - N/A Screamer | 1984 MA61 1JZ-GTE - 80s cruiser
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

  7. #37
    Forum Member Grease Monkey
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    67

    Default Re: Long rod 4A or how to destroke a 7A

    Well you guys kinda beat me to it...

    First, above 9000 rpm on a stockish crank mounted oil pump (and don't give me that toda crap ) you're already pushing it and playing with fire. Anything sustained higher than that will require at least an externally mounted underdriven oil pump or a full dry sump system. Second, the engine might have better geometry but nothing with a stroke of 77 mm will rev over 10,000 rpm reliably for long. Third, like trdee said, go watch any video of guys running F/A engine in even the most stripped down AE86 and look how awful just releasing the clutch looks to be. In a full blown N/A racing engine, just aim for a peek power around 8500 or 9000 rpm and enjoy a little more efficiency and reliability of the long rod 4A at those rev compared to a standard 4A.
    KE20 1974 <- Sold -> Thread
    AE95 1990 <- 4A-GZE daily driven wagon...

  8. #38
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    QLD
    Posts
    231

    Default Re: Long rod 4A or how to destroke a 7A

    For me this is a great idea/experiment. If you at this stage see no reason a rod ratio increase and thusly revving an engine as high as possible reliably, then you are choosing not to see the real world tangible benefits of such an engine. The 4A engines that rev to 10k rpm plus are hand grenades and have service times in hours and minutes, not thousands of kilometers. Imagine being able to have a daily driveable 4A powered car that reliably revs to 10,000 rpm. If this doesn't appeal, then you dont get ae86s' in my lowly opinion.

    Back to the comment earlier about this not being done anywhere in the world...
    In Holden modifying circles a common racing engine mod is to fit "biscuits" which is the old school racing term for shelf pistons. A biscuit kit will usually consist of either a crank with more stroke to make up for it if physics and regs allow, or a longer rod to increase the deck height and rod ratio with the flatter piston design, without changing capacity. This second idea is more common if you are limited by capacity in a class for racing.

  9. #39
    Forum Member Grease Monkey
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    67

    Default Re: Long rod 4A or how to destroke a 7A

    I think I can just paste this here before going any further. It's directly taken from my build thread when someone ask about the theory behin this idea


    Quote Originally Posted by bermy View Post
    Sure mate, hope you like reading

    Lets start from the start. The whole point of this whole build is to increase the rod to stroke (r/s) ratio of the 4A engine to something more suitable to a performance engine. For those that don't really know what r/s ratio means or why it's important, here's a little crash course :

    Measuring r/s ratio is really easy, you take the rod's center to center measurement and divide it by the stroke of the engine. In the case of the 4A : 122/77 = 1.58:1. Engines don't tipically have ratio under 1.5:1 mainly for clearance reasons, piston skirt needs to clear the crank counter weight so the rod cannot be too short and because that ratio really changes the way engine behave. That is also why when toyota went and created a stroked version of the 4A, the 7A, they had to increase the height of the block to be able to increase the rod length to suit the longer stroke. The 7A uses 131.5mm rods for it's 85.5mm stroke : 131.5/85.5 = 1.54:1, still a little above 1.5 but a litter lower than that of the 4A.

    Now why do we want a higher r/s ratio? Well, in a reciprocating engine, the piston traveling in a linear direction needs to transmit there energy to a rotating crankshaft. The position of crankshaft in relation to the vertical plane follows a sine curve but since the pistons are not directly attached to the crank pin but via a connecting rod, the piston position in relation to the vertical in not following a true sine curve but a modified one. You see, the highest vertical speed of the crank pin arrives exactly when the crank is at 90° to the axis of the pistons (90° and 270° at the crank), but when it is there, the rod is forming an angle since the crank pin is offset on the side by half the stroke of the engine (the length of the crank throw). So maximum piston speed doesn't happen there, but when the crank pin are positioned to have the rod forming an angle of 90° to the crank direction of rotation. Since the pistons are positioned on one side of the crank, that position happen a little before reaching 90°, typically around 80° and is mirrored on the other side so around 280° instead of 270°.

    That brings a problem. Pistons reach zero speed 2 times per cycle, at TDC and BDC if the max piston speed was happening at 90° and 270° that would leave the same number of degrees to accelerate and to decelerate while going up and down the bore but since it happens when the crank pin are angled a little bit toward TDC, pistons will have to accelerate fater from TDC to max speed and have more time to decelerate toward BDC and then will accelerate toward max speed in 100° and have only 80° to decelerate toward TDC.

    What that leads to is that acceleration forces at TDC are always higher than what they are at BDC. It also causes the piston dwell time at TDC to be lower than the piston dwell time at BDC.

    But what does r/s ratio have to do with all of this. Well, the longer the rod, the less angle the rod will see on a complete cycle, thus attaining maximum speed closer to that 90°, reducing TDC acceleration and increasing piston dwell time at TDC while doing the opposite at BDC. According to what we saw, TDC acceleration will always be higher and dwell time lower than BDC so getting a longer rod will push the piston to follow a "truer" sine curve.

    Lower acceleration at TDC will mean that strain on the rods will be lower, allowing either more cylinder pressure or allowing to rev higher before the engine will longer rod sees the same abuse than the same engine with shorter rods.

    But it doesn't stop there, the rod angle is also of prime importance in a performance engine. When ignition occures in an engine and piston passes TDC, the whole force of the piston presses on the rod and to transmit its energy to the crank shaft but while the piston moves down the bore, rod angle also increase. At that time, the piston is still traveling down but the force is transmitted at the angle of the rod. If you've done really basic physics in school, you'll know that when a force is applied at an angle, it is actually split in to, a portion of the piston force is pushing down the rods and an other portion is transmitted at the same angle on the other side, trying to dig the piston in the side of the bore, increasing friction which is HP killer and is also bad for durability, both cylinder, ring and piston durability. Since higher cylinder pressure happens after ignition and the engine rotates only in a single direction, the side forces created by rod angle are highest on one side of the cylinder bore : the major thrust side. Now in a 4AG engine, with the engine rotation clockwise, the major thrust side in on the intake side... if you know your 4AG well, you'll know that the early ones had 3rib and the casting was later changed to a 7rib design. Where are those 4 extra ribs? Yep, right in the middle of all 4 cylinder bores on the intake side... coincidence? I think not

    And if you think those forces in an engine are low, I calculated the G forces in a standard 4A to be upwards of 3000 @ 7700rpm... that means that the 1lbs piston is exercing a force of over 3000lbs, much more than what the car weight and we are talking about forces if you just spun the engine with no spark plug in... now start compressing stuff and igniting fuel in there and you can relly appreciate the forces that are sent on the crank shaft.

    To prove my point even more that a higher r/s ratio in a 4A engine is desirable, when it was time to create the ultimate 4A, the atlantic, they had to cas new pistons with the piston pin moved higher up in order to use longer rods to get a r/s ratio of 1.7:1 over the stock 1.58:1. If you look at a lot of engine design, you'll notice that the higher revving engines will typically have a higher r/s ratio. Bike have ratio above 2:1 while Formula 1 engine, that revs upwards of 18,000rpm, have higher than 2.5:1 r/s ratio.

    With my recipe, you increase the rod length to 137.4mm while retaining the 77mm stroke to give a nice r/s ratio of 1.78:1 not F1 territory but way better than the stock one... not even talking about atlantic's one

    What the higher r/s ratio give in real life above the lower accel speed (lower strain on the reciprocating parts) and lower side friction in the bore is also a higher resistance to ping with the higher TDC dwell time of the pistons by not having to advance ignition timing by as much as a "shorter rod" engine.

    Unlukily it is not without downsides. The first one is mainly that you need a taller engine block, increasing weight (marginal in our situation) but pushed to the extreme it could make a notable difference and also you need to stuck the engine under the low bonnet of the car, once again in our case it doesn't make any difference but it could if pushed to the extreme.

    Something else is that longer rod will weigh more. In my case, using the smaller 40mm crank enable to have smaller big end rods so I end up with a rod assembly that weigh a little less than the lightest 42mm rods, the blacktop ones. The downside is that the crank is likely less tough but by having less forces thrown to it via lower accelaration forces it might be sufficently strong. One good thing about the 40mm crank versus the 42mm one is that the smallest one is lighter and also the journal speed at the same RPM will be lower, decreasing friction loss once again.

    Lower time at BDC will also decrease cylinder scavenging, which is also worst at lower engine rev so a long rod engine will need either bigger intake ports, a camshaft a little more aggressive or more lift and will therefore have it's torque curve pushed higher up the rev band. Luckily, it's higher resistance to ping should enable to use higher compression pistons which could negate this downside... not totally but still.

    So now, a lot of guys have asked why not use the 7A internals and get a 11% increase in displacement. The 7A crank is poorly designed on the lubrification departement and even if you'd make a billet one with the right oil passage drilled and smaller rod journal, the geometry will render the 11% in displacement negligeable... could even end as a down grade. You see, the difference in pistons peeks acceleration between the 7A and my recipe are exaclty 7%. What it means is that to have both engine on par concerning peek acceleration at TDC, you'd have to rev my engine 7% higher than a similar 7A... and since HP is :

    Instantanious torque * RPM / a constant

    the higher torque of the 11% bigger 7A will not equal in 11% increase HP if the 7A (and bear in mind that this is comparing same engines with only a difference in the bottom end geometry). Well, 11% more torque > 7% more rev : 7A win again? Well no necessarily... since the 7A is a 4A stroked, that 11% increase in displacement is all taken with a higher torque, increasing piston speed and with the poor r/s ratio creating higher friction load, the little advantage the 7A still has in increased torque is more than likely to be eaten all the way, even more by increased friction loss at higher RPM. And we are not even starting to get into the whole higher piston dwell time at TDC = less tendency to ping = better anytime of the day.

    And to leave it there, here's a couple graphs I made :

    First is the difference between stock 4A, tom-age and the same engine with 77mm stroke but a 10m long rod (do not attempt, it's just to ilustrate an the point of what happens when you increase rod length. Notice the "y" axis on the acceleration graph

    Red = 10m long rod
    Blue = 4A
    Green = Tom-AGE





    Here is the same graphs with 7A, 4A and tom-age

    Red = 7A
    Blue = 4A
    Green = Tom-AGE





    End of lesson... but I won't go too far away if anyone has questions
    Lets face it, between the long rod and 7A the difference in acceleration at TDC is 7% and it goes lower for a 4A. That mean that you could push it maybe 500 rpm over a stock 4A before putting as much load on the internals... sure the lower rod angularity will also affect that, but you wont get to rev 2000 rpm higher... 1000? maybe.

    Anyway, 10,000 rpm is just a number. Can it do it? Sure, 4A can do it. Reliably? As stated above : more than a similar 4A. But you won't go years without rebuild, a season of racing maybe as opposed to a race or 2 for a similarly built 4A. It'll still be expensive to maintain, like very expensive.

    My answer was directed to the post above and to the 99% of people who wants to "rev there 4A in the 5 digits". I've heard that a thousand times and everytime its for a "street/weekend warrior build" and people have no idea what they are getting themselves into.

    Between you and me, if you have a racing car the size of a starlet or less that will see >95% of it's time on a circuit and you have a budget and time schedule to go through the whole engine every winter, then by all means use that recipe and build a 5 digit screamer that will push the limit of the A engine a notch or two. If I had the budget to, I'd do it... matter of fact everything on that engine is built with that in mind... maybe a year or two down the road I'll turn in into that kind of monster but for now I'm aiming exactly what I suggested above : peek power between 8500 and 9000, get a couple tens thousand km out of the engine and still have some torque down low to enable driving on the streets without wanting to shoot myself.

    I could've built a nice 4A and still reach those goal but building a long rod 4A will just make the same engine happier up top and more reliable (and possibly more powerfull at the same RPM levels) which is very good in my book. It might not be out of the standard 4A power range but I don't think we need to push the envelop that far in building the world's most powerful 4A engine just to prove the concept.

    Oh and I might have been miss quoted but when I said that it "was not being done anywhere in the world" I was talking on the specific 4A case. Honda B series have been fitted with those biscuit for quite sometimes, as well as a lot of domestic (USDM) V8 in racing circles. I didn't say I invented the principle of trying to achieve a higher r/s ratio, I merely said that I haven't seen a destroked 7A recipe before.
    Last edited by bermy; 29-08-2013 at 09:50 AM.
    KE20 1974 <- Sold -> Thread
    AE95 1990 <- 4A-GZE daily driven wagon...

  10. #40
    Toymods Events Secretary Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    NSW
    Posts
    10,253

    Default Re: Long rod 4A or how to destroke a 7A

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleRedSpirit View Post
    For me this is a great idea/experiment. If you at this stage see no reason a rod ratio increase and thusly revving an engine as high as possible reliably, then you are choosing not to see the real world tangible benefits of such an engine. The 4A engines that rev to 10k rpm plus are hand grenades and have service times in hours and minutes, not thousands of kilometers. Imagine being able to have a daily driveable 4A powered car that reliably revs to 10,000 rpm. If this doesn't appeal, then you dont get ae86s' in my lowly opinion.
    What you dont get is engines in general. Having a nicer r/s is not going to change the general behaviour of a 1600cc engine revving to 11000rpm or beyond. But hey, if you think it's a great idea, go put a hayabusa engine into your sprinter and tell me how much you love slipping the clutch at 5000rpm to get off the lights

    Increasing the r/s ratio isnt going to magically make your 4A rev to 11 and last for years and years. There is a whole lot more stuff involved in doing that.
    1988 AW11 9A-GTE - Turbo Missile | 2004 Elise K20A - N/A Screamer | 1984 MA61 1JZ-GTE - 80s cruiser
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

  11. #41
    Forum Member Grease Monkey
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    67

    Default Re: Long rod 4A or how to destroke a 7A

    Quote Originally Posted by trdee View Post
    What you dont get is engines in general. Having a nicer r/s is not going to change the general behaviour of a 1600cc engine revving to 11000rpm or beyond. But hey, if you think it's a great idea, go put a hayabusa engine into your sprinter and tell me how much you love slipping the clutch at 5000rpm to get off the lights

    Increasing the r/s ratio isnt going to magically make your 4A rev to 11 and last for years and years. There is a whole lot more stuff involved in doing that.
    Man I wish I could be a man of few words like that instead of writing whole essay that could be resumed in 6 lines... thanks trdee
    KE20 1974 <- Sold -> Thread
    AE95 1990 <- 4A-GZE daily driven wagon...

  12. #42
    Toymods Events Secretary Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    NSW
    Posts
    10,253

    Default Re: Long rod 4A or how to destroke a 7A

    It was only a few posts below where I described what you need to to to build a spastic 4A so I didnt feel like repeating myself
    1988 AW11 9A-GTE - Turbo Missile | 2004 Elise K20A - N/A Screamer | 1984 MA61 1JZ-GTE - 80s cruiser
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

  13. #43
    Administrator Backyard Mechanic
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    NSW
    Posts
    250

    Default Re: Long rod 4A or how to destroke a 7A

    I have done this... good results, reliable engine and incredible at 9000rpm and 20psi of boost.

  14. #44
    Bull now in china shop! Domestic Engineer NME308's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Qld
    Posts
    752

    Default Re: Long rod 4A or how to destroke a 7A

    I (read my brother and I) are using a 3 inch stroke crank in a large bore Chev smallblock V8 with 6.4 inch rods for our compound turbo engine in the Camaro.
    The rod to stroke ratio should be favourable no?

    Cheers,
    Jason
    3TC Compound Turbo 1976 TA23 - Members Ride Thread HERE
    479RWHP on 50psi and 70psi hasn't broken her at the track!

  15. #45
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    QLD
    Posts
    231

    Default Re: Long rod 4A or how to destroke a 7A

    Quote Originally Posted by trdee View Post
    What you dont get is engines in general. Having a nicer r/s is not going to change the general behaviour of a 1600cc engine revving to 11000rpm or beyond. But hey, if you think it's a great idea, go put a hayabusa engine into your sprinter and tell me how much you love slipping the clutch at 5000rpm to get off the lights

    Increasing the r/s ratio isnt going to magically make your 4A rev to 11 and last for years and years. There is a whole lot more stuff involved in doing that.
    Wow, I never expected to get picked on for saying I like the idea. I never mentioned 11000rpm either.

    Thanks for marginalising me as the idiot you wanted to rag on to feel good, rather than responding to what I actually wrote! You guys rock. Don't stop being awesome. 10000rpm should be fairly safe in spurts, and would be a good goal. You're really only pushing the rod ratio to around the same as a 2t anyhow with all this work. I'm interested to see how it comes out.

    I only mentioned the Holden stuff because the op is in Canada and may not have a lot to do with Holden hardware that we buy in Australia. They may have charts and tables of data that support the above information for you to read if you didnt know it all already. My bad.

Similar Threads

  1. How long might my engine last?
    By bec5175 in forum Tech and Conversions
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 06-11-2010, 10:34 AM
  2. Long cranking - 7M =/
    By Adash=P in forum Tech and Conversions
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-04-2007, 10:07 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •