help choosing a 3sgte (and ta22/3sgte talk)

[Element88]

Ok, so i have decided to go down the route of the 3sgte conversion in my 74 ta22

now, i am going to get straight to the point:

there is a GenIV 3sgte halfcut of a Caldina st215 on ebay at the moment for cheap

my understanding is that this engine does not have the dizzy which will foul my firewall when it goes into the ta22. which = good

Is this even worth looking at? or just a waste of time?

dont really have anyone else at hand to get a second opinion from at the moment

any input would be much appreciated

Joel

[MWP]

It is the best 3S-GTE to choose.
RWD conversion should be the same process as done on any other 3S-GTE.
Electrics could be tricky though.

[Element88]

what about finding things like parts?

the add states that the engine has done 147 thou k's so I would be looking at pulling it apart checking everything and replacing anything that is a bit worn

when i look around at various parts for the 3sgte, they all state that they support either the st185 or the st205 etc etc, but they never mention the st215, so will i have much trouble finding things like main or big end bearings (if i was wanting to replace them as an example)

not wanting to get too involved with the ta22/3sgte conversion (im pretty sure i have that covered) and yeah, electrics will be awesome to tackle (sarcasm)

I am kinda wanting to know whether a 147 thou km engine is worth my time and money looking at, and if it will be a nitemare trying to find parts (or if genIII or other parts will fit if required)

thx

[Cuts]

gen 3 and 4 are for all intensive purposes the same, bearings etc, so go for it.

difference being gen4 runs COP and CAS not dizzy as you have said.

[Element88]

hmmn, sounds very promising

thnx for the info guys

now have to bargain for some shed space

cheers

Joel

[af300e]

Caldina gte has turbo exhaust housing as part of the manifold, so you'd have to go for a new turbo, but you'd likely be doing that anyway. Other than that, the caldina one is probably the best although i've not found much issue with converting the gen 3 either. Sump and clutch were the biggest issue.

[jfallen]

gen 3 and 4 are for all intensive purposes the same, bearings etc, so go for it.

difference being gen4 runs COP and CAS not dizzy as you have said.

don't forget top feed injectors and higher comp pistons 9.0:1 instead of 8.5:1 in the Celica's, a turbofold, side inlet manifold and a remote mount oil filter.

Cheers
Jordan

[Cuts]

of course since this is going into a ta22 the inlet mani and exhaust/turbo setup have to be changed anyway.

remote oil filter i didnt know about...learn something new every day.

[stidnam]

Teaser pics to help you up make your mind.

With the turbo you can put a 7MGTE CT26 exhaust housing on the exhaust side instead. Granted it will be a bit worse than the unmolested stock turbo as there is more gap between the exhaust wheel and the housing. It will also not be as good as an after market turbo such as the disco potato if you are chasing big power.


Just testing the fit with it on the factory lean. Basically don't bother just plan on standing it upright.






For the clearance at the back of the head there is a breather tube that you will need to remove and get a fitting welded on.



There is also the huge water block thing you will need to sort out



Once these are sorted the oil pressure switch is the next thing that sticks out the most and this can be relocated if you put in a 90 degree fitting and a bit of pipe/hose.




So buy it

[Element88]

awww teaser pics.....

just because i have 12 months to wait until i can have it in the ta22, so harsh

haha

anyways, been tossing round another possibility than the one on ebay

ebay one = 147,000 k's (cheap ass price, but probly needs a rebuild in the not to distant future)

threw together a prices (pistons, bearings, gaskets/seals, and a metal head gasket) prices blew out to 2 grand, and thats not even looking at the turbo or any other work that cant be done by myself

got in contact with an importer who can supply me a caldina halfcut for 3.9 g's on a special order with around 50,000 k's (a few months waiting period, but i have time so no biggy) cost v rebuild suddenly looks appealling

decisions decisions decisions

af300e, are you saying that i cannot use the stock turbo, even though i will be getting a custom exhaust manifold knocked up? my intentions for power are not that huge that im wanting to source an aftermarket turbo (thinking 14-15 psi and will be happy with the numbers that gives me)

the sump will most likely be a 2S modified one, as this seems to work for most ppl

havent worked out clutch yet, will be a w57 or w58 if i can find one, with a 4y bellhousing, so will have to find a clutch/flywheel combo that will fit without much modification

jfallen, the gen4 has a remote oil filter?? awesome!! can take that off the list

thnx again for the info guys, much appreciated

cheers

Joel

[Cuts]

correct you cant use the stock turbo as the manifold and exhaust housing of the turbo are cast in a single peice and in RWD format the turbo and inlet manifold will both point toward the firewall.

You could get a gen3 turbo, ive personally seen these push over 200 kw at all 4 wheels (on mine).

but since you need to make a mani and stuff anyway you may as well get a garrett gt2860 or something similarly responsive but with ultimatly more power potential.

back to your low km engine vs rebuild toss up at least if you went the higher km and rebuilt it you KNOW for sure that its micky mouse and will be good for BIG POWAS for many kms to come, where as with a low km engine its still second hand at the end of the day.

EDIT: looks like this.

[twentyEight]

Don't go for a 2S sump if going Gen 3 and above, the Gen 3 and above engines have a completely different design and your much better off just modifying that.

Standard clutch and flywheel is a straight boltup to the W5#, but you need to space the starter out by about 10mm, machine the bellhousing, and run a 10mm spigot bearing.

[jfallen]

hence my coining of the phrase Turbofold

I'd go down rebuild road but only as far as rings/bearings/polish crankshaft (if needed,) balance, hone the bores, face block and head, metal head gasket, clean up valve seats and new valve stem seals. On modest power you wont bust a stock Toyota Piston. Only crappy tuners can brake them. Keep in mind though that if you are able to to a compression test or a leak down test and the engine comes up trumps then no point wasting cash on a rebuild. The Caldina motor should pull 180PSI on a compression test (well that's what mine does on all four and it gets 9.5l/100kms on the highway after 70,000kms.)

Cheers
Jordan

[Element88]

so it sounds like the rebuild is going to be the way to go...

i suppose i wont really know until i bite the bullet, snatch it before someone else does, and see what kind of nick its in

and cuts, that "turbofold" pic explains the issue 100%... thnx

what kind of diameter difference are we talking when getting the cylinder bores honed? enought to require slightly larger than stock rings?

would be cheering if it wasnt necessary for new pistons, the expensive buggers that they are

cheers

Joel

[Element88]

oh, and thnx for that info on the clutch/flywheel and sump TwentyEight

much appreciated

(+repping all)



Joel

[stidnam]

got in contact with an importer who can supply me a caldina halfcut for 3.9 g's on a special order with around 50,000 k's (a few months waiting period, but i have time so no biggy) cost v rebuild suddenly looks appealling

If you are getting a special order then try to get a cut that is the post 2000 facelift model which has the hid lights so that you can sell these off to other Caldina owners and recoop some cost . Also try to get a manual one if you can but they are rare (<10% of production) so you can also sell the gearbox.

af300e, are you saying that i cannot use the stock turbo, even though i will be getting a custom exhaust manifold knocked up? my intentions for power are not that huge that im wanting to source an aftermarket turbo (thinking 14-15 psi and will be happy with the numbers that gives me)

As I posted above you can swap the exhaust housing for the 7MGTE CT26 housing if you want to do it on the cheap and are not concerned about big power. I have not run this yet but I think it is worth a try as it is a lot cheaper than buying a new turbo.

Agree with the others don't use a 2s sump, modify the stock one which is heaps better.

With the bellhousing either 3/4y or 2s the gearbox is on a lean if you straighten up the motor.

I wouldn't classify the gen4 as having a remote oil filter. Yes it is not on the side of the block but it is part of the lower sump piece.




If you are going to rebuild a caldina motor then try to get a gen 2 block also as you will be a LOT better off in terms of making engine mounts and just swap the blocks over. Not sure if the gen 2 block has oil squirters but these can be fitted.

[driftke70]

i have fitted a gen 3 in to the bay of a ke70, i used a beams sump.

gen 4 has its upsides over gen 3, most of which didnt phase me. I was cutting out my firewall and moving
my engine back either way. coil packs are pretty neat but.

[af300e]

With the bellhousing either 3/4y or 2s the gearbox is on a lean if you straighten up the motor.

Hmm, my gen 3 is vertical and the gearbox is perfectly upright. Used a 2s bell housing.

What about, since you are not subject to emissions rules, taking a gen1 NA (HUGE intake ports) or gen2 gte head and a gen 2 gte block (has oil squirters) and running an aftermarket computer and gt2871 or some such? Use a 2s sump, engine mounts and bell housing, put new wiseco pistons in it and 264 deg cams. You can still run some other type of coil on plug system driven by the new computer. Build custom intake and exhaust manifolds.

[ONCE-NA]

Don't do it! Get an SR20DET or maybe a CA18 and save yourself money and heartache and get cheaper easier upgrades too!

[Element88]

sorrry Once-NA, but a few years ago i came accross a celica gt4 that had the most awesome sounding exhaust note that it just had me sold... that and the power i am looking for isnt hard to get

and i couldnt bear the thought of putting something nissan into a classic celica, its just doesnt feel right

(that aside i have a mate who hase a ca18 in his 70's corolla, and that thing goes hard!

stidnam, i might take your advice and play around with the 7mgte ct26 exhaust housing, to see if that can work for me, if i am going to do this rebuild on the 147 thou km engine, it will all depend on the condition of the turbo as to wheter i find a genIII ct26 or go for something aftermarket and custom manifold

and not sure about swapping blocks over to a gen2 model, the engine mounts cant be that much different that it will cause me more trouble, will most likely have to make up custom ones as i am trying to figure out if i can fit a r&p setup in, as the old steering box is driving me insane

r&p for a ta22 = a cut up crossmember from a corolla, which will most likely mean custom engine mounts anyway, well thats the idea i am running with atm (no solid plans for this yet tho, later date)

and again stidman, is there much of a problem with the gearbox being on a slight lean? other than the mounting wont be flat?

af300e, using the 2s bellhousing puts the starter motor on the exhaust side does it not? I have been told that by using a 3/4Y housing i can get the starter on the intake side and free myself up some room for exhuast/turbo stuff

and about using the gen2 gear or even the gen1 NA head, that is all possible but i am liking the idea that i dont have to go out and get an aftermarket computer, as my plans i dont beleive will require one to get to my outcome goal, just run the stock gear and i dont have to mess around with getting coil packs and a ignition system due to ditching the dizzy on the back of the gen2 head

and the $$ involved with aftermarket computers is a little harsh

if you were really keen, you could ger familier wiht plc's and if you know your stuff about tuning you could write up your own maps and tune it yourself (but.... no) (i dont know my stuff haha)

so much to think about so early in the morning

cheers

Joel