Whether to Pull the head off or not? (4agte) {help!}

[Cuzzo]

Hey peoples,

I need some advice!

I have a O-ringed block 4agze.

Copper Headgasket.

The rear of the head/block was leaking water(between head gasket) so i re-torqued the head.

How i did it was..

I loosened off all headbolts at once(using the correct method)

Then re-torqued the head(using the correct method)

However i didnt drain the water or oil. Now just thinking about it. The water that is in the galleries possibly could have leaked under the headgasket or onto the piston or even into the oil galleries. Also reverse with the oil could have leaked under the gasket or into the water galleries.

The car has been sitting for a week now not started so there wasnt much oil in the head.

Will i have a problem with the water and oil mixing or with the oil or water under the gasket causing a problem with the copper headgasket sealing the head and block.

I really dont want to remove the head!!

[LeeRoy]

Really what you want to know is whether youll have to pull it off now, later, or never. If you pull it off now you could be wasting your time but down the track it could start leaking and you may have to pull it off anyways. If your lucky it may be fine and if you were to pull it off now you might just be wasting your time.

If you were competing in races or something and you couldnt afford to have it fail then id say take it apart but if it does fail later and its of no loss having it off the road then id leave it but monitor it closely. Whats the worst that could happen?

How much did you loosen it?

Maybe do some tests that you would do to determine a BHG.

[Cuzzo]

I loosened the bolts fully but didnt play with the head or move the engine or anything. Just a simple. Undo all, then do up.

[LeeRoy]

Generally they hold their seal until moved dont they? But at the same time it only needs to have broken the seal in one place for it to have allowed water or oil onto the face and/or provide a starting point for worsening leaks.

[legend]

i would torque it down more maybe another 5-10 ft/lbs
then rip the plugs out chuck some rag in the valley and spin it over u dont want a fluid lock
have a look in the cylinders for anything
then re install the pugs fire it up to operating temp and check for oil leaks or coolant loss

[damo101]

out of curiosity how much did the o'ringing and copper gasket cost you??

[IN 05 NT]

as mentioned above,

pull the plugs

check with torch down the plug hole for coolant

and turn the motor over, using the starter motor....

drop oil, change coolant to be sure,....

blake

[oldcorollas]

did you have anything "extra" around the water galeris to seal them?
i assume you hylomar'd it?

it seems not so uncommon for a copper gasket to leak water, since the pressure of the headbolts is mostly taken up by the o-rings,... which is the point...

[Cuzzo]

The gasket came covered in that stuff(not sure on its name) and it suggests to not use anymore on it.

I also used sealant around most of the chambers too.

Well i guess i'll just have to find out the hard way.

I looked down the spark plug holes and it looks clean(no oil/water) but i'll have another look after i crank it over a few time(before i fire it up)

[allencr]

I loosened the bolts fully but didnt play with the head or move the engine or anything. Just a simple. Undo all, then do up.

Yes, you did move the head enough for oil&coolant &carbon & sealant & flotsam & jetsam to move in between it. Just because you weren't able to observe it move a gross amount doesn't matter, it did move!
ONE AT A TIME!

What does 'using then correct method' mean- you wrote it twice, each loosened a little in some sort of sequence, or each completely in sequence???

************************************************** ***********************
OK, then it's 'each loosened a little in some sort of sequence,' - Sorry, I had'da ask.

[Cuzzo]

The correct method toyota suggests for removal and torqueing down the headbolts.

[kemicalx]

What head fasteners are you using? ARP studs/bolts? OEM? Do you know if both your head and block had receiver grooves milled in them?

If the fasteners are OEM I'd be a little wary of them being stretched and not tensioning up evenly, even so chances are your cylinders will be free of any oil/coolant, the o-rings do a good job of keeping everything out of them, not so sure about the oil/water galleries.. They may have mixed, Might be best to drain and replace them to be on the safe side.

The problem is, copper gaskets are installed in an annealed state, when the copper is soft and malleable. This means when it is installed and tensioned up it crushes around the rings. After 500-1000km (someone confirm?) the gasket needs to be re-tensioned, then sometimes again after another 500-1000kms.. The problem after the engine has been through a lot of heat cycles the copper gets very rigid, and without removing it from the engine and having it re-annealed it won't crush and seal up under tension as well as it did initially.

So as has been suggested, plugs out, inspect for rust deposits, torch + inspection, pipe cleaner/rag down to ensure no coolant is down there.. If there isn't I'd think the engine would be ok to run with little risk of hydraulicing it.. But keep a close eye on coolant temp/oil pressure.. When my copper gasket and o-rings started playing up after a re-tension, I noticed coolant temp spikes and dips. Then when it let go coolant temp rose and stayed high, my front welsh plug had popped, and coolant/oil mix was ejected onto the road everywhere.. fun times hehe

[Cuzzo]

They are ARP bolts. Not studs and nuts.

I never knew they existed. The say arp on them but look much like a standard bolt.

Owell shes running again and it seems the same.

Just will be changing fluids to be for sure.

[3BarSuperstar]

A question about the copper head gasket. Why did you use one?

[Cuzzo]

I bought the motor already o-ringed.

Want to run high boost aswell. (however that could be come undone without the arp stud kit.

[30psi 4agte]

For future ref : Which you prob already know now.....but

When re-tension just back one off at a time ! ...That way you will have far less chance of breaking the seal between the head and gasket etc

[Cuzzo]

Yeah i researched a bit further when i was up shit creak. Because toyota suggests to do torque to (what ever amount i think it was 23nm) and then 90 degrees and another 90.

I though it would be easier to loosen completly then redo to those specs. O well ill do it properly when i get some custom manifolds done, and a turbo which will do 25psi all day everyday.