Wideband O2 sensors, a few questions.

[adamaw11]

I'm trying to work out whether I can make use of one before I fork out and get one.
My ecu (EMS Stinger) has data logging which works pretty well, and its supposed to be able to read wideband input, but its a few years old now and I'm just not sure of a few things.

1. Are wide band O2 sensors pretty standardised? i.e. if my ECU says it can support the use of a "Bosch Wide Band Lamda Sensor" (0258-104-002)
does that mean anything on the market with that description will suit? or is there heaps of variation with different models and versions now?

2. What sort of a voltage output do they give? If I want to test my ECU's ability to read wideband input, can I just stick 1.5V onto the input wires and see if it gives a lambda reading?
or do they have some tricky oscillating output? like I've been led to believe narrowband sensors have.

3. I'm thinking of buying something like this. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...NA:MOTORS:1123

Bosch LSU 4.2 5 wire heated O2 sensor.
Bosch part # 17014 Innovate part # 3737
Can be used with PLX, Innovate systems (LM-1 or LC-1)or simply as a replacement to your stock wideband O2 sensor.

I'm guessing it should be just a matter of joining up the wires right? 2 wires for powering the heater, and 2 for outputing the signal.

[Duk]

I think you would be best off buying an Innovate LC-1 to interface between the Oxy sensor and the EMS. The LC-1 controls the heater circuit and possibly filters/conditions the output signal of the sensor (don't quote me, tho ).
I know the later EMS 4424/8860 require the wide band sensor input to come via a controller like the LC/LM-1.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/INNOV...spagenameZWDVW

[thechuckster]

rather than which model of sensor it supports, does the ECU say something like "accepts wideband (0-5V) input"?


wideband sensors need a controller - so they can't directly connect to your existing ECU.

I can't see that eBay listing from work - but you'd need something like this from TechEdge that combines controller with sensor. Their full list of stuff is here.

[JP]

I've got the Innovative LC-1 setup in three of my cars, two with powerfc's interfaced through a datalogit and one through an Autronic SM4, they're excellent bits of gear, fast response times and two programmable outputs on the LC-1 controller. The only small gripe with them is that you have to wait 30 seconds or so after switching the ignition on to let the sensor heat up before starting the engine.

[-GT-]

Seriously?! You can't start the engine until the the sensor has spent 30secs heating up? Or it just doesn't register a meaningful signal until it's hot?

What does your ecu do when it gets out-of-range on the wideband? I would've thought it just couldn't drop into closed loop idle control?

[gearb0x]

Seriously?! You can't start the engine until the the sensor has spent 30secs heating up? Or it just doesn't register a meaningful signal until it's hot?

What does your ecu do when it gets out-of-range on the wideband? I would've thought it just couldn't drop into closed loop idle control?

well you can start it straight away its just gonna soot up ur sensor and make it useless, it needs to get hot so it can burn anything off it

[JP]

The sensors last longer if you let them heat up before starting the engine.

The powerfc's dont care too much about the O2 feedback when it's out of range lean on decel, the when you have o2 feedback enabled on the powerfc it uses the factory narrowband input to control it along with your basemap and fuel mod map.

The Autronic is more robust, but I haven't been able to play around with mine too much as it was locked by the previous tuner in Wollongong and I have to send the ECU down to them so they'll unlock it.

I bought my last LC-1 from these guys: http://stores.ebay.com/Erics-Perform...QQftidZ2QQtZkm

I've got two with the DB guages and one with an XD-16, the XD-16 responds a lot faster than the DB does.

[gearb0x]

as said above a controller is the best way to go as it requires some complicated circuitry.

I use a Tech Edge 2EO unit, tis pretty nice 0-1v,0-5v and other configurable outputs depending on what ECU/datalogger ur using, mine was 300$ DIY including sensor

[-GT-]

So nothing different from any other (factory/narrowband) O2 sensor then? And i'm pretty sure they need to be hot to read correctly? You're not thinking of hotwire afms that heat up at shutdown to burn stuff off? Or is the first 30 secs before it gets hot anyway the worst for 'soot'?

[JP]

The LC-1 has a LED output that blinks during the warmup period and goes solid when the sensor is heated and it's ok to start the engine.

[oldcorollas]

1. Are wide band O2 sensors pretty standardised? i.e. if my ECU says it can support the use of a "Bosch Wide Band Lamda Sensor" (0258-104-002)
does that mean anything on the market with that description will suit? or is there heaps of variation with different models and versions now?

2. What sort of a voltage output do they give? If I want to test my ECU's ability to read wideband input, can I just stick 1.5V onto the input wires and see if it gives a lambda reading?
or do they have some tricky oscillating output? like I've been led to believe narrowband sensors have.

3. I'm thinking of buying something like this. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...NA:MOTORS:1123

I'm guessing it should be just a matter of joining up the wires right? 2 wires for powering the heater, and 2 for outputing the signal.

just to answer your questions directly...

1. there are very few wideband sensors.... basically two types, the NTK and the Bosch. they work in "opposite" ways, so you need a controller for the specific sensor you have.

2. wideband sensors all have a narrowband sensor in the middle, with a zirconia(?) oxygen pump around them. the current needed by the oxygen pump to maintain the narrowband at stoich, is controlled by the "wide band controller", adn that current is measured and converted to a 0-5V signal. the heater is also controlled because at different temperatures, the reading varies, since the efficiency of the zirconia oxygen pump and the narrow badn inside vary.

this 0-5V signal is what your ECU can read. narrow band is usualyl 0-1V, so that is why they state the wideband thing.

yes you can.. and it will give a lambda reading.. hook up a pot to a 5V source (like.. your PC ) and see what the lambda reads..

narrowband are not oscillating outputs.. it is better to think of them as a "switch".. at stoich, they effectively switch from high voltage to low voltage...
the output from wideband should be more "constant", but any oscillation of either will ususally be from the closed circuit control of the ECU, adjusting fuel up and down.
some of the available wideband controllers are a bit "dull".. ie, their response time is a bit slow.. (so ppl say)

[adamaw11]

thanks for the info people, I think I get the point about a controller being a necessity, and it looks like I'll have to fork out over $200 to get something working here.

I might as well start looking for any local suppliers of a wideband sensor + controller before I place any online orders for overseas things.

I might see what happens if I join a AA battery to the ecu's wideband input wires. 1.5V should be somewhere in its lamda range right? will be interesting anyway.

[oldcorollas]

yup, try a single AA battery, or 2 hooked in series... the wideband should give a 0-5V output...

the LC1 is neat and simple.... there are other DIY type kits also..

[YLD-16L]

I might as well start looking for any local suppliers of a wideband sensor + controller

As Chuckster has noted these ones are locally made:

http://wbo2.com/home/products.htm

Sounds like the 2J1 model would be more than suitable for your needs and interfacing with your current ECU. Plenty to read on that tech edge site so it should answer any questions you can think of.

I picked up a 3A2 unit with the LX1 display a few weeks ago and it's a very nice unit.

Handy thing is that the wideband outputs are able to be remapped if necessary, which it most likely won't be on your ECU. You should just be able to plug and play.

FWIW you don't need to wait for the heater to warm up to start the car, in fact if you let it fully heat up and then start the car and any condesation is present in the exhaust and it hits the sensor it can damage it.

The sensors are designed to switch on when the ignition switches on and Bosch states that under normal conditions with correct placement they will last over 100 000km. Some references even state up to 160 000km. Any carbon deposited on the sensor during startup is burnt off during normal use.

[The Witzl]

I'm going to give the thumbs up to the LC-1 wideband controller as well.
Its a VERY neat and small finished product, unlike the WBO2 which isnt (as that is my main gripe with the WBO2 product).

Outputs are configurable by PC, there are two outputs, and you can even configure one of them to be like a narrowband output for a stock ECU.

Great bit of gear in my experience.... indestructable.

[YLD-16L]

I'd say the 2J1 is a fairly neatly finished/packaged product after having a look at 1JZ-Rollas one. No idea how size compares though, but it's fairly small and similar in size to the LC1 I think.

The unit I got is certainly no show pony in terms of looks though (grey ABS case with some buttons, plugs and LEDs), but that's not what it's for, it's the functions and claimed accuracy that is its purpose.

[The Witzl]

Here's a link to a pic of the whole LC-1 kit - http://www.diamondstarmotorsport.com...novate-lc1.jpg

I havent looked at WBO2 products for about a year, so i dont know. I also got the p00s with them for not replying to my emails for over 2 weeks, so i bought the Innovate LC-1 (it was cheaper too)

[adamaw11]

well I can see an LC-1 with sensor kit for $199 USD
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Innov...3741QQtcZphoto

and the tech-edge 2J1 kit (with sensor and no display) came to $253 AUD (does include an RS232 pc cable though)
http://www.wbo2.com/2j/default.htm

(damn whats the current exchange rate again?)
I'm guessing postage would be cheaper in aus too.

Havn't decided which one seems better value yet, but I think I need to look at the LC-1 a bit more. The WBO2 site certainly is good for info - thanks for pointing that out.

[JP]

for the innovative stuff, see http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources.php

[YLD-16L]

I havent looked at WBO2 products for about a year, so i dont know. I also got the p00s with them for not replying to my emails for over 2 weeks, so i bought the Innovate LC-1 (it was cheaper too)

Yeah, I'll agree that their reposnse to email is less than inspiring, but when I called them they were great and I had my whole setup within 24 hours (cashola discount of 10% too).

The LC1 is a great looking unit, I just went with the 3A2 because I figured I could use most of the inputs and outputs for logging, I also went with a 4m sensor cable so I can run it with a sniffer pipe on some other cars.

3A2 features see below:

*Accuracy within 0.1 AFR (Lambda +/- 0.005).
*10.5 to 19.5 Volt DC operation (up to 3 Amps).
*Uses LSU 4.0/4.2 (Bosch 6066/7057 family) or NTK (L1H1/L2H2) sensor.
*WBlin Configurable wideband 5 Volt output (12 bit accuracy).
*SVout for LD01 display (10 bit configurable too).
*NBsim narrowband (10 bit configurable too).
*3 analogue 0 to 5 Volt inputs sampled at up to 40/sec.
*4 thermocouple inputs (can be converted to analogue inputs).
*RPM input from Tacho or ECU for logging.
*PULSE input from VSS sensor or cruise control for logging.
*ALARM output with configurable software triggers, for shift lights, buzzers etc.
*5 volt output for powering external sensors such as MAP or TPS.
*Auto-cal button, one-touch calibration (with sensor in free-air).
*USB Full-Speed (12Mb/s) virtual serial port - designed for modern laptop computers *without RS232 ports. 100% compatible with existing PC software.
*On-board 1 M Byte logging memory downloads via USB and RS232 channels to PC.

I should get a chance to test mine for accuracy against a dyno shops one in the next couple of weeks.

The 2J1 is more of a direct comparison to the LC1 though:

http://wbo2.com/2j/default.htm



*Accuracy within +/- 0.1 AFR over AFR 11 to 17.
*Differential WBlin wideband 0-5 Volt output.
*Uses new Bosch LSU 4.2 7200 sensor.
*WBlin configurable with 10 bit accuracy.
*Auto-cal button calibration with sensor in free-air.
*NBsim narrowband (10 bit configurable) output.
*2 analogue 0 to 5 Volt inputs sampled at up to 40/sec.
*RPM input from Tacho or ECU for logging.
*PULSE input from VSS sensor or cruise control for logging.
*10.5 to 19.5 Volt DC operation (up to 3 Amps).
*Free logging software (optional extra feature upgrade available).

LC1 or 2J1 I don't think you could go wrong either way.