Stay N/A or go budget Low Boost Turbo - 16v 4AG

[eightsixboy]

Hi all,

I have a ae93 which has the stock small port. Currently running only basic mods (extractors, exhaust, intake etc), estimate around 75-80 fwkw at the moment.

I enjoy the car for what it is but I would really like some more torque (40-50nm) and overall power, somewhere around 90-110 fwkw would be nice.

I have been contemplating going a low boost turbo setup, but besides the obvious issues of all the fab required there is also the cost required to get a half decent setup, I could go second hand bits for 90% of it but I would rather not skimp on the ecu or turbo.

I have already bought a manifold of ebay (proper cast, not a dodgy stainless one) but that is for a rwd top mount application, I thought I could get the turbo to fit under the bonnet but it aint't gonna happen. I could use it still but I would have to run a pipe from the manifold to the turbo, it might work out ok as I could position the turbo anywhere I want but it will add to the length the exhaust gas has to flow and might look like a pos.

So I have this compiled as what I think I would need

Kinugawa TD04 - $500-600 (includes all flanges + braided lines etc)
Intercooler - Already have
Fuel pump - Already have
Clutch - Already have
Manifold - either make use of rwd one, use stock modified one or make a new one from scratch
Dump - $50
Intercooler Piping - $50
ECU - Haltech PS500 $1100
Map sensor - $20?
Misc - $150
GZE or 7M injectors - $150-200

So without skimping on the important stuff ie turbo and ecu it gets expensive very quickly, and that doesn't include any issues I might have or the labour involved to get it up and running. I'm confident in welding as long as I don't have to make a whole manifold, and I already have a 16v sump with a drain bung, so the real issues I see are ecu and turbo fitment.

I see the ECU as a win win either way, even if I stay n/a I think the ecu is a good idea so I would rather not run a gz ecu as I would have to change from dizzy to cas and change wiring.

I also currently have 2 c52's, a c56 and spare shafts sitting around, so as long as its not making huge power I souldn't have to upgrade to a E series box, at least not straight away.

So what do you guys think, is it worth the effort to go turbo or should I stay n/a and just be happy with it?

[woggin]

why not slap an sc14 or alike on it?

If torque is wat your after....4a came sc, why not just use all the factory parts and go sc...

[trdee]

there is no such thing as a budget low boost 4AG. minimum spend is 4k to do it and not have it blow up. either accept this as an inevitability and go for it, or keep what you have.

SC14 install will cost the same and make you less power with less reliability.

110fwkw is not difficult to achieve with a built n/a 4A (shit a blacktop will almost get you there standard). you wont have the same midrange power compared to a turbo, but it will cost less and be less complicated to set up and maintain. turbos are awesome, but if youre only aiming to make 110kw i wouldnt consider the headfuck of doing a turbo install to be worth the effort.

also the c52 will cope with plenty more than 110kw as long as you dont drive like a mong

edit; for a left of field suggestion - you could look at putting in a 3S or even a camry V6 if you want more midrange but not particularly more power. neither of them are overly difficult to do into a corolla by all accounts

[woggin]

I would have thought itd be much cheaper considering 4a came in gze, so all the brackets, pipework, mountings exist already, just a matter of bolting it all together, then its just the ecu side of things.

but, i havent owned a 4a, only driven mums rolla, so i dont really know the in/outs of them! (but the process is pretty much the same id think!)

[eightsixboy]

why not slap an sc14 or alike on it?

If torque is wat your after....4a came sc, why not just use all the factory parts and go sc...

Honestly not a huge fan of the GZE. Had one in a AW11 and didn't enjoy the poor throttle response and constantly slipping S/C belt. Was good fun though, but not really worth the effort imo, would rather a turbo setup.

[eightsixboy]

there is no such thing as a budget low boost 4AG. minimum spend is 4k to do it and not have it blow up. either accept this as an inevitability and go for it, or keep what you have.

SC14 install will cost the same and make you less power with less reliability.

110fwkw is not difficult to achieve with a built n/a 4A (shit a blacktop will almost get you there standard). you wont have the same midrange power compared to a turbo, but it will cost less and be less complicated to set up and maintain. turbos are awesome, but if youre only aiming to make 110kw i wouldnt consider the headfuck of doing a turbo install to be worth the effort.

also the c52 will cope with plenty more than 110kw as long as you dont drive like a mong

edit; for a left of field suggestion - you could look at putting in a 3S or even a camry V6 if you want more midrange but not particularly more power. neither of them are overly difficult to do into a corolla by all accounts

Thanks for your reply.

But I'm a little confused about the minimum 4k spend. Is this because of needing a rebuild?

The reason I was thinking of low boost (4-5psi) 4AG was due to the fact you wouldn't have to have forged pistons etc.

There has been a few guys do very low budget turbo setups with success, using steampipe manifold, wrx td04 + GZE ecu, cas, coils etc etc. The goal isn't necessarily very low budget, more can I go turbo for the same price as modding it n/a.

I'm am happy to stay n/a though, its just that from past experience with the 4AG once you have done cams, full exhaust, intake and ecu your pretty much done. And considering for the cost of cams I could buy a brand new turbo, it makes me wonder if staying n/a really is the way to go.

[trdee]

you were already at just over 2k on your previous estimates. and your previous estimates did not include money for a manifold or oil system. you also need money for tuning and money for other ancillaries

4k is a realistic budget for something which isnt a piece of shit. a slappa ebay manifold which doesnt fit properly and running on GZE electronics is what i call a piece of shit. I should know, I've done it myself....

woggin the GZE stuff isnt particularly commonplace and even then the SC14 is not a bolt on affair. fair bit of custom bracketry and other fucking around required and for what? a 25 year old supercharger which is probably gonna shit itself and blows 120deg air at any decent level of boost? no thanks

[eightsixboy]

you were already at just over 2k on your previous estimates. and your previous estimates did not include money for a manifold or oil system. you also need money for tuning and money for other ancillaries

4k is a realistic budget for something which isnt a piece of shit. a slappa ebay manifold which doesnt fit properly and running on GZE electronics is what i call a piece of shit. I should know, I've done it myself....

woggin the GZE stuff isnt particularly commonplace and even then the SC14 is not a bolt on affair. fair bit of custom bracketry and other fucking around required and for what? a 25 year old supercharger which is probably gonna shit itself and blows 120deg air at any decent level of boost? no thanks

The manifold doesn't have to be some custom stainless tig welded one or anything special, if I couldn't modify the rwd one I already have or make one from steampipe I'm sure I could use the stock header and weld a flange on it. I do agree with what you are saying in principal but a lot of the really expensive things don't have to be so.

Like with the turbo or ecu I could just use a wrx td04, they are like $100-150 in good condition, ad an extra $100 for braided lines and the flanges required. Same with the ecu, I could just wait for a second hand Haltech, adaptronic etc and save a lot, I was thinking of buying new just purely for less headaches.

With the tuning, as long as I have a wideband at a min and maybe a knock senor hooked up (widebands are like $200) I wouldn't bother taking to a shop to get "tuned". I know not everyone can tune, but I have tuned quite a few cars from wrx/sti's, skylines etc etc, and have a mate with a workshop/dyno if I ever really get stuck or have issues.

I'm not sure what you mean by oil system though, I'm sure the stock small port would be fine with the stock oil cooler and oil pump.

[eightsixboy]

Double post

[trdee]

sounds like you've already decided your course of action

[eightsixboy]

sounds like you've already decided your course of action

Not really haha. I have a clear idea of what I want to do, but on one hand I have some people saying its gonna be expensive, and I can see why it could end up been an expensive exercise, and on the other I have seen a few guys on here or other forums who just seem to slap a turbo on and have no drama's at all running 4-5 psi.

I just don't want to be disappointed like I was with my AE86 that I had, I did cams, exhaust, intake etc, everything except ecu and higher CR. Basically even after dialling the cams in it only made 72rwkw. I know it was a bigport so only a 85kw motor when new, but doing all that work for very minimal gain seemed like a huge waste of money and time. I know that with my current AE93 that even with say 264 degree cams/ecu and say roughly 12:1 cr it "might" make more then 90fwkw, but it will still have bugger all torque.

[xero]

"Hi i have a car with and engine. i only have pocket lint and peanuts to pay for mods and i want to turbo or N/A my car. i can i install an N/A for cheap? but i really want mid range so bodging a turbo will be the best for me and i have purchased a few items that are completely unsuitable to my vehicle. will this work? other people have made it work crappily so for sure mine will be a complete crap heap by doing it this way!"



EDIT

I just don't want to be disappointed like I was with my AE86 that I had, I did cams, exhaust, intake etc, everything except ecu and higher CR. Basically even after dialling the cams in it only made 72rwkw. I know it was a bigport so only a 85kw motor when new, but doing all that work for very minimal gain seemed like a huge waste of money and time. I know that with my current AE93 that even with say 264 degree cams/ecu and say roughly 12:1 cr it "might" make more then 90fwkw, but it will still have bugger all torque.

clearly if you were disappointed with 'only 72rwkw' you were AE86'ing wrong. with 12:1 comp and 264 cams you will only JUST make over 100wkw, but that necessitates rebuilding the motor and that will cost you at least $4k to buy new pistons, balance the crank, head work and put it all together. and no it wont "have bugger all torque", i ran with 85rwkw and 12.5:1 comp with STOCK SMALLPORT CAMS and still beat out a number of other cars such as HSV, BMW and clios at racetracks such as QR, wakefield and bathurst.

[trdee]

Not really haha. I have a clear idea of what I want to do, but on one hand I have some people saying its gonna be expensive, and I can see why it could end up been an expensive exercise, and on the other I have seen a few guys on here or other forums who just seem to slap a turbo on and have no drama's at all running 4-5 psi.

I just don't want to be disappointed like I was with my AE86 that I had, I did cams, exhaust, intake etc, everything except ecu and higher CR. Basically even after dialling the cams in it only made 72rwkw. I know it was a bigport so only a 85kw motor when new, but doing all that work for very minimal gain seemed like a huge waste of money and time. I know that with my current AE93 that even with say 264 degree cams/ecu and say roughly 12:1 cr it "might" make more then 90fwkw, but it will still have bugger all torque.

I dunno, i just dont think you're going about this the right way. I know a few of those people who have slapper builds and "no dramas" actually means "constantly bandaged together to get me from a to b".

Granted, you can save yourself a bit of coin if you can fabricate a manifold yourself etc. And if you are only aiming for 110fwkw then perhaps the stock oil cooler might be enough, but have a look at some of the AE92 turbo conversions that have been done on twincam or toymods in the past and you will see that it is a fairly involved job. Honestly if you are just looking for something with a fatter power band and dont want to spend much coin you might be better off buying another car with the kind of power band you want out of the box. Something V6-powered would probably give you what you are looking for...

That being said it does sound like you have your heart pretty set on the turbo route and at the end of the day it's your car, not mine If you wanna give it a go then by all means do so. I'm just adding my opinion.

[eightsixboy]

I dunno, i just dont think you're going about this the right way. I know a few of those people who have slapper builds and "no dramas" actually means "constantly bandaged together to get me from a to b".

Granted, you can save yourself a bit of coin if you can fabricate a manifold yourself etc. And if you are only aiming for 110fwkw then perhaps the stock oil cooler might be enough, but have a look at some of the AE92 turbo conversions that have been done on twincam or toymods in the past and you will see that it is a fairly involved job. Honestly if you are just looking for something with a fatter power band and dont want to spend much coin you might be better off buying another car with the kind of power band you want out of the box. Something V6-powered would probably give you what you are looking for...

That being said it does sound like you have your heart pretty set on the turbo route and at the end of the day it's your car, not mine If you wanna give it a go then by all means do so. I'm just adding my opinion.

Ok thanks. I do appreciate the input.

I just thought turbo as I don't mind taking on the project or having to fab some stuff. But having said that the last thing I would want is it to turn into a high maintenance headache.