MA61 W58 F313. Whining, help diagnose driveline/diff problems?

[patrickleslie]

Probably an obvious question, I've done a bit of forum searching but I want to be sure before I go out and spend a tonne of money fixing the wrong thing...

Supra has a steady whine at stationary idle in neutral and clutch engaged, hard to hear where from exactly because it kind of reverbs through the car. When I disengage the clutch the whining stops after a moment. This doesn't make sense to me because the car is not moving and not in gear, so isnt the diff is not spinning at this point? Why whine?
It seems to get louder depending on speed, it can be hard to hear on the freeway over the road and engine noise but it is definitely there.
Gear change at low revs makes the car with clunk and shudder. It also clunks when I drive in one gear, say 5th at 100km/h, accelerate in gear and then back off. It feels like there is a lot of play between the diff spinning the wheels and the diff spinning off the gearbox, like the car is bouncing forwards and backwards between loose teeth or something. The clunkiness isn't as apparent when flooring it, but is still there. Is this what people call backlash?
The clutch was replaced a week ago, new plate, disc, spigot and thrust bearings. The whine was there before and after this was done.

I guess the diff is dying. Is this a just matter of getting new bearings in it and leaving the centre as is, or will it need to be a new centre (a truetrac?) to fix the problems?

Could the whine be from the driveshaft cradle that it spins in?

Cheers

[dnegative]

Alright;
W58's are known to be noisy boxes that whine like a bitch, doesn't seem to affect their durability much but most seem to whine after 200k etc
If your getting a whining noise while revving in neutral its either coming from the gearbox or its engine related. Have heard electrical interference from the alternator make noises too.

Diffs are normally pretty easy to spot, normally the backlash is shot and they are quiet on overrun. Not always the case but that's how most are.

It also clunks when I drive in one gear, say 5th at 100km/h, accelerate in gear and then back off. It feels like there is a lot of play between the diff spinning the wheels and the diff spinning off the gearbox, like the car is bouncing forwards and backwards between loose teeth or something. The clunkiness isn't as apparent when flooring it, but is still there. Is this what people call backlash?

Can be a heap of things;
Flogged uni's
Flogged center bearing
Flogged diff
Driveshaft out of phase

[JDM hachi]

I think the whine may be your clutch thrust bearing, the clunkiness when driving is a different problem, and is probably one of those listed above by dneg.

matty.

[patrickleslie]

The whine must be the gearbox then, makes sense because it doesn't whine when I free rev with the clutch pedal in. If it doesn't affect durability then I wont worry about that

So much for being simple to fix the clunk.

If this "DRIVE LINE PHASING" is what you're talking about, I would assume and therefore discount the driveline being out of phase because it's a stock engine, stock gearbox, and stock diff. Surely toyota wouldn't make it out of phase from factory...surely? I'll double check that the two halves of the shaft are aligned correctly in the light tomorrow, that might account for something if they're rotated off line.
Unis and centre bearing are 30 years old, I guess i'll investigate them further.
Diff...how is it 'easy' to spot a diff? Can you please explain what 'backlash' means, I think I know but I'm not 100% sure

Thanks dnegative and matty

[AE25]

possibly input shaft bearing in the box.
The input shaft always spins with the engine. the only time it does not (and when it's quiet?) is when you fully compress the clutch pedal. It often takes a few seconds for the input shaft to slow down, but if the input shaft bearing is noisy (and destroyed enough) you'll hear it slow down and stop. Though if the clutch is not fully disengaging then it'll stay spinning, but this also causes difficult gear changes.

There's also a possible chirping noise that is caused by the release bearing rubbing the pressure plate. It goes away if you put a tiny bit of pressure on the clutch pedal. Had this happen on a k50 box with cable clutch after the return spring on clutch fork broke so release bearing was only just rubbing the clutch pressure plate. It's possibly rare to have happen on a hydraulic clutch, but if there's no freeplay set between the clutch pedal and the clutch master cylinder, then it's theoretically possible the clutch fluid is not returning to the reservoir upon releasing the clutch which will hold the release bearing against the clutch pressure plate.

A worn driveshaft center bearing is often heard as a vibration around 80-110kph without load on the drivetrain (not accelerating or decelerating).

A whining noise when accelerating is possibly diff bearing low preload or poor crown/pinion gear alignment. I've heard of high powered supra's with the F-series diff having issues with the pinion gear crush tube being stressed from the amount of power transferred through it. You can buy off the shelf solid spacers and shims to fix this.

Re clunking. If you get under the car with the wheels on the ground or ramps or handbrake on, turn the driveshaft by hand backwards/forwards in neutral. you may be able to see if there's major backlash in the center bearing, diff or rear cv's. The diff could be crown/pinion backlash and/or axle spline wear. Since you have lsd, you probably wont be able to easily diagnose diff spider gear wear which also feels like drivetrain backlash. the lsd itself may hide spider gear backlash anyway?
The open diff in my ke26 has this issue, ive reset crown/pinion backlash within factory spec, yet it has noticable clonk upon loading up the diff and the spider gears had alot of backlash when it was inspected.

[patrickleslie]

possibly input shaft bearing in the box.
The input shaft always spins with the engine. the only time it does not (and when it's quiet?) is when you fully compress the clutch pedal. It often takes a few seconds for the input shaft to slow down, but if the input shaft bearing is noisy (and destroyed enough) you'll hear it slow down and stop. Though if the clutch is not fully disengaging then it'll stay spinning, but this also causes difficult gear changes.

This is exactly what happens in regards to the whine, and that would explain why it's volume seems to depend on engine speed rather than actual speed....hopefully it can be fixed without splitting the gearbox?

i'll prop the car up and try your suggestion over the weekend and see if I can find what is causing the driveline backlash
Cheers Mark

[patrickleslie]

Thread revival!

I've been aware but ignoring this for a while but it's getting into summer and the end of the uni year so I'm ready to deal with this now. Also, I've noticed a leak from the front of the diff that is gradually getting worse and I'll have to deal with that at some point too.

A whining noise when accelerating is possibly diff bearing low preload or poor crown/pinion gear alignment. I've heard of high powered supra's with the F-series diff having issues with the pinion gear crush tube being stressed from the amount of power transferred through it. You can buy off the shelf solid spacers and shims to fix this.

Spacers and shims...why not just add an extra clutch plate? That'd tighten up the 'limited slipping' as well as fix the backlash/freeplay right?
i.e. Have two of the "Thrust Washer No. 2" on this diagram --> http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar...aspx?S=RA&P=37

Re clunking. If you get under the car with the wheels on the ground or ramps or handbrake on, turn the driveshaft by hand backwards/forwards in neutral. you may be able to see if there's major backlash in the center bearing, diff or rear cv's. The diff could be crown/pinion backlash and/or axle spline wear. Since you have lsd, you probably wont be able to easily diagnose diff spider gear wear which also feels like drivetrain backlash. the lsd itself may hide spider gear backlash anyway?

Can be a heap of things;
Flogged uni's
Flogged center bearing
Flogged diff
Driveshaft out of phase

Videos are fresh uploads, might take a bit of time to process on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwjJReOjEqM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rafkUeoIaYs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWMDZIaaQYw

Doing Mark's test suggestion it is easy to see that there is a lot of play in the driveshaft, around 30 degrees rotation, and a small bit in both axels at the diff end not the wheel end, maybe 1 or 2 degrees rotation.

[allencr]

Spacers and shims...why not just add an extra clutch plate? That'd tighten up the 'limited slipping' as well as fix the backlash/freeplay right?
i.e. Have two of the "Thrust Washer No. 2" on this diagram --> http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar...aspx?S=RA&P=37

No.
He's writing about bearing spacer&shims for pinion gear bearings of ring/crownwheel & pinion gear fame. Not the similarly named pinion/spider gears located in the diff carrier.

The gearbox whirring/whine that disappears with clutch dis-engaged is from the input/first motion shaft bearing and/or the lay/cluster/countershaft bearings.

[patrickleslie]

So not like step 6(b) here--> http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar...aspx?S=RA&P=27
But like the step 3(e)-(h) here? --> http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar...aspx?S=RA&P=30


And thanks for the confirm on the input shaft bearing whine mate

[allencr]

Neither, the pinion spacer is the 2nd pic from the top on this page -http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK2/manual.aspx?S=RA&P=34

Please ignore about 95% of the BS about backlash written by people on the WWW!!!
Backlash is a gear design spec to make sure that the teeth will make good contact both ways - under power & during overrun/engine braking - without having to check their contact patch on both sides. The gears can be setup a dozen ways, all wrong, and still have the right backlash spec.

That R&P backlash is barely perceptible, if at all, by turning the driveshaft. Worn spider/pinion & side gear thrust washers in the diff carrier are the source of driveshaft play, and usually means fuck all next to nothing, EXCEPT for Toyota LSD's with their shitty aluminum thingy that breaks when the spiders & side gears have too much slop.

[patrickleslie]

Alrighty, with all that in mind the ball park quote from Mr. Toyota is $850 for a drive-in-drive-out diff rebuild. Parts were about half that. Absolute minimum cost was $650 assuming nothing serious is wrong when they crack it open. At that price, it might even be worth going for a TrueTrac...?

[MA61 Turbo A]

Hi,

Value for money, TrueTrac/Torsen stlye would be the way to go. You can re-shim your diff tighter but it will slowly wear out and then need to be re-shimmed. I have a lokka lock right mechanical locker, also dropped my diff gears to 3.57. For every day driving, dont do this. Has made the car a pain in the ass to drive but you cant beat the traction.

Cheers

Brad

[patrickleslie]

What about a TRD LSD centre? They are also clutch type and sound like theyre a bit more predictable to drive? Anyone with experience on the driving behaviours of both types want to chime in?

[AE25]

Thread revival!
Doing Mark's test suggestion it is easy to see that there is a lot of play in the driveshaft, around 30 degrees rotation, and a small bit in both axels at the diff end not the wheel end, maybe 1 or 2 degrees rotation.

when checking this, the idea was not to see the total amount of rotation of the driveshaft, but to move the driveshaft back and forth to see if there's any noticeable slop between each cv joint or center bearing or the diff itself to try narrow down an individual culprit. If you can identify any worn components and replace them it'll help reduce the total amount of play. The 30degrees you're getting is the sum of all slop within the rear drivetrain which will account for the rocking back and forward as you say when accel/decel. The 'clonk' you hear upon load engagement could be an individual mating part or just the whole lot loading up at once. so yes, each and every worn component that has a bit of play that you can improve on will assist to get rid of the drivetrain sloppyness.

Please ignore about 95% of the BS about backlash written by people on the WWW!!!
Backlash is a gear design spec to make sure that the teeth will make good contact both ways - under power & during overrun/engine braking - without having to check their contact patch on both sides. The gears can be setup a dozen ways, all wrong, and still have the right backlash spec.

Getting pedantic about engineering terminology are we? Backlash is not specific to gear teeth! the dictionary says so
"b. play or lost motion between loosely fitting machine parts."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/backlash
In my defence allencr, i mentioned C&P backlash as a possible culprit of the 'clonking' noise, not the whine. although, yes it'd have to be pretty bad to be the sole cause of an audible clonk.
To my understanding, backlash is the amount of 'play' or 'movement' between two parts. In this context, it IS the backlash or drivetrain slop that causes the clonk. and yes it can be an issue with too much because shock loading is more destructive to the drivetrain than pure torque. Like putting your car up to a brick wall and then accelerating or stop 2 meters away and then accelerate. ie spider gears with excessive backlash are more susceptible to breakage when losing traction and one wheel grips or one wheel getting airborne and landing again under power.
As allencr says, diff head backlash is most likely caused by the spider gears. a combination of C&P, spider and spline wear can add up to a noticeable sloppyness in the drivetrain when driving though.
The backlash between crown pinion on a good F series is only about 0.2mm tangentally to the crownwheel which is 2 10ths of fack all. Although a worn C&P or diff bearings can increase the backlash and hint at the possibility of C&P misalignment causing the whine. If you were seeing 30 degrees of pinion shaft rotation without the side shafts moving, then that would suggest something suspect inside the diff head. A tight clutch lsd would isolate that slop to the axle/side shaft spline or C&P since the axles are effectively locked together enough that you wouldn't be able to move the spider gears by turning the driveshaft by hand. A worn clutch lsd would allow the spider gears to move which would then be a more likely cause of diff head backlash upon inspection.
Anyway, sounds like the whine is your gearbox.

If you don't want an LSD that chatters, avoid any sort of locker and also 2way mechanical unless the clutch preload is reduced.
Torsen are the perfect diff for keeping traction. not so predictable once all traction is lost. not as good with huge power as the torsen gearing is not as strong compared to other lsd types. but at least they dont wear out or require special oil like clutch lsd's.
1, 1.5 and 2-way ramping lsd are the best for performance use. difference between them is the way they lock up on deceleration.
The oem style spring loaded clutch lsd like ae86/ma61 and hilux lose their effectiveness quicker with wear and dont lock up as hard as the ramping style. can leave you stranded with a wheel in the air. but definately better than an open diff.

Ive put an altezza torsen into live axle and an altezza kaaz 2way in my ke70 skidder.

[4th surf]

I concur with AE25 as the earlier W series boxes were notorious for noisey input shaft bearings particularly behind a 6 cyl or 8 cyl engine. Now the same can be said of the R series boxes in 4wd applications but one trick was to use a heavier oil to "muffle" the noise, sad to say this doesn't really work as with a heavier oil in the toyota boxes they tend to "Baulk up" when cold which means you won't be selecting gears. How to tell for the layman as to which part of the driveline is the problem is to simply do an oil change on the gear box and diff. If the oil is a nice honey colour then there is no issue, if it is brown or a "Black/grey" colour" then that is the area with the problem. Also see what is stuck to the drain plug as that is magnetic, a small amount of "Grey paste" can be lived with but obvious metal splinters indicate a problem.

Sad to say but you may be up for a gearbox overhaul.

Oh FYI a cheap way of getting a Torsen LSD here in Aus? Esp for a live axle? Think KUN26 Hilux. There's enough of them in the mines either getting flattened, crashed, rolled etc. Apparently I've got 10 of them waiting for me up on site in the "dead Zone" (fly in in the morning). The diesel ones are a 3.56 ratio