The Tuning Talk Thread - Forced Induction EFI & JZ Tuning.

[JZA70 R]

Ive created this thread for those that have an active interest in tuning their own cars, or at least would like to know more about tuning turbo & efi engines with the various programmable management available on the market today.

Ever since i bought my supra ive dreamt about the day i could tune it myself, 5 years later i have the opportunity and despite all the research in the world, its difficult to talk to others about this subject... so im hoping this thread will bring together some good minds and hopefully some good information for those looking to learn about tuning.

Some topics Ill look forward to discussing in this thread are...
What ECU & engine you have
How you are tuning that ecu
What wideband o2 and knock detection you use and how its intergrated with your ecu
Are you using a Dyno or street to tune, or both?
Are you tuning from blank maps or using a 'base map' or someone elses hard work
Your opinion on withholding tuning tips or secrets or even your own data and maps from persons and for what reasons?
What modifications you have done to your engine and how they effect your existing tune, or how they are have increased/decreased difficulty to perform further tuning
Your experience from tuning timing.
Your experience from tuning fuel.
Your experience from tuning around knock.
How intimate you are with your ecu, have you learnt every feature and what it does?

I could probably go on forever but that should get something started for now.

Ill be looking forward to sharing my experiences when time permits.

[oldcorollas]

Megasquirt I, V2.2 PCB
Megatune
none yet
street with dyno check
blank maps. it is easy.
ghey, each engine will be individual anyway.
etc etc

will be moving to MS II with V3 PCB and running MSnSE firmware.

open source, all online, easy to find answers and learn abotu it, and you can write your own code if you are keen.

[JustCallMeOrlando]

This is from my old car, but it's what I'm planning a similar setup for the JZA80. I'll update this when I do (if I remember ).

-Adaptronic e420c on a 1GGTE
-WARI software via laptop connection
-Techedge 2C0 WBO2. Integrated knock detection on Adaptronic.
-Initial power tune performed by SAS on a dyno, cruise and light loads tuned on the street, mostly using autotune.
-Started with a map from another 1GGTE from a drift car, fattened it all out and started pruning from there.
-I'm big on helping others out, so withholding stuff is just being a douche bag.
-No modifications were done after the tune was done.
-Wasn't that confident with timing, most of the timing was done by SAS.
-The auto-tune feature is a great starting point, gets you 90% of the way there very quickly and modify from there. Was able to get a set of decent AFR's very quickly.
-As per timing. Will do more with the new engine.
-I played with most things, didn't get around to setting up the launch control which I wanted to. Spent a lot of time on transients, got a few modifications to the ECU's firmware pushed through filling in weak points of the functionality. Very happy with what it's capable of now which is why I'll be using one again.

[chris_rg]

i tuned my 18rge with megasquirt using a datalogging and narrow band o2. It's easy to get a rough map. then fine tune using log analysis software. with the 18r the ignition timing was just a matter of some educated guesses (based off standard dizzy mapping) then turning it up and backing it off a bit if it pings.

this was all done on the 'street' (actually quiet back roads with long straights and good hills).

With the 1G-GTE I'm working on, I'm planning on using a innovate or techedge wideband o2 and knock box. obviously some more care will need to be taken with the turbo engine not to let it run lean or ping under boost. but the same principle applies.

I'm also looking at datalogging gps (or maybe accelerometer, or even just rpm) to gather some kind of repeatable measurement which is proportional to torque. racechrono software for my n95 phone can do this. All you need is repeatable measurement it doesn't have to be calibrated. hopefully this can act as a kind of 'street dyno'. If you consider it a relative figure then there is no point trying to calculate losses that are constant like drive train losses. I just want to plot a graph then make some changes log it again and compare. calculating kw or nm figures is only important to compare with other cars.

I also think we should be sharing collected info like maps and ecu settings. There is a bit of this done within the megasquirt community. It makes a big difference for others if they don't have to start from scratch. as above though, every engine is different and would need fine tuning anyway.

the old blokes around never had dynos to tune their carbies, and in reality efi is way easier, there is so much more information being feed back to the tuner.

[JZA70 R]

ok so heres a question...

(high engine load scenario eg 3rd 4th & 5th gears)

say your target AFR for 17psi is 12:0 (17psi being peak boost)

do you guys tune a linear AFR scale from where positive pressure starts all the way to full boost?
or do you tune it to hit 12:0 as soon as positive pressure is there? (that may be exaggerated, say hitting 12:0 at 5 psi and maintaining to 17psi?

Same thing again but with RPM as a factor... do you tune a linear AFR scale from high boost in low rpm to high boost in high rpm or do you want 12:0 @ substantial boost in ANY rpm?

hope that makes sense

to give you some data for the cause
i can make 11.5 psi by 2900 rpm. what would your target AFR be at this point? (1JZ U98)

[YLD-16L]

ok so heres a question...

(high engine load scenario eg 3rd 4th & 5th gears)

say your target AFR for 17psi is 12:0 (17psi being peak boost)

do you guys tune a linear AFR scale from where positive pressure starts all the way to full boost?
or do you tune it to hit 12:0 as soon as positive pressure is there? (that may be exaggerated, say hitting 12:0 at 5 psi and maintaining to 17psi?

Same thing again but with RPM as a factor... do you tune a linear AFR scale from high boost in low rpm to high boost in high rpm or do you want 12:0 @ substantial boost in ANY rpm?

hope that makes sense

to give you some data for the cause
i can make 11.5 psi by 2900 rpm. what would your target AFR be at this point? (1JZ U98)

I tune in a linear manner eg 13.0:1 at 0psi, 12.8 at 2 psi.........12:5 @ 8psi 12:0 @10psi through to peak boost. Seems to work fine and give nice power curves and driveability.

For the second question I target say 12.0:1 at peak boost no matter where in the rpm range it comes in.

*The above figures I used are examples and not actual figures.

For your third question, I'd be happy to aim for just on the richer side of 12.5:1 in that case eg. 12.3 - 12.5.

[YLD-16L]

Ive created this thread for those that have an active interest in tuning their own cars, or at least would like to know more about tuning turbo & efi engines with the various programmable management available on the market today.

Ever since i bought my supra ive dreamt about the day i could tune it myself, 5 years later i have the opportunity and despite all the research in the world, its difficult to talk to others about this subject... so im hoping this thread will bring together some good minds and hopefully some good information for those looking to learn about tuning.

Some topics Ill look forward to discussing in this thread are...
1. What ECU & engine you have
2. How you are tuning that ecu
3. What wideband o2 and knock detection you use and how its intergrated with your ecu
4. Are you using a Dyno or street to tune, or both?
5. Are you tuning from blank maps or using a 'base map' or someone elses hard work
6. Your opinion on withholding tuning tips or secrets or even your own data and maps from persons and for what reasons?
7. What modifications you have done to your engine and how they effect your existing tune, or how they are have increased/decreased difficulty to perform further tuning
8. Your experience from tuning timing.
9. Your experience from tuning fuel.
10. Your experience from tuning around knock.
11. How intimate you are with your ecu, have you learnt every feature and what it does?

I could probably go on forever but that should get something started for now.

Ill be looking forward to sharing my experiences when time permits.

1. I have a 4AGTE being run by a Microtech, have played with another similar setup and a 1JZ with Microtech in the last few weeks.

2. My one is tuned on the road and checked on the dyno, the 1JZ was tuned on the dyno by another member of this forum and tidied up on the road. The 1JZ vehicle has had mechanical issues (snapped 4 tailshafts) so hasn't been completely fine tuned yet.

3. I use a techedge WB unit on all the vehicles, it logs all the data to my laptop. Knock is detected with a set of "knock ears".

4. As noted above, a combination of both.

5. Mine was from a blank map (all data was lost), the 1JZ had a Microtech base map but was significantly altered by the tuner.

6. I like to share information as I simply have an interest in tuning and like to learn as much as I can, sharing info speed up that process. I can understand some tuners who have spent years developing specific engines not wanting to share their hard work though. Each to their own.

7. On my 4AGTE it's a stock long motor with bolt on mods, being small and not massively powered it's been easy to tune and play with. Results are easily gauged. The 1JZ is a stock long motor with single turbo conversion and bolt on mods. It runs 650cc injectors and the Microtech struggles to control light load and idle conditions to within acceptable AFR's. The forum member on here did a great job with the driven and WOT areas of the tune, it drives fantasticly. The features to make it "nicely mannered" at light load and startup etc have proven to be quite fiddly to set up well. I hope to have this one all sorted and very well behaved shortly. Just waiting for a new turbo to arrive and the ECU to be returned.

8. Timing is where I need to learn more, ideally I would like to only play around with timing on the dyno, but on my own 4AGTE I am happy to tune timing on the road for learning purposes. I can use the data logger to gauge increases or decreases in torque due to timing changes but it's fairly crude.

9. I find tuning fuel maps quite easy now and am getting much quicker at doing them.

10. Using the knock ears and from previous experience with my own engine on the dyno I know MBT is about 2 degree retarded from when knock is detected at WOT full load so knowing that it's quite simple to tune for different fuels. When V-Power racing (100) was available at the pump I dialled in more boost and an additional 6 - 7 degrees more timing across the rpm range without a hint of knock.

11. The Microtechs are very very basic so it's easy to use every feature on them, once you become familiar with them and learn more about tuning though it leaves you wanting more control and features though.

[JZA70 R]

Thanks for your reply's YLD, i agree with using linear fuel transitions as it does yeild a smoother power curve and hence better drivability.
There probably is such a thing as playing it too safe aswell. I could probably have found those answers by simple trial and error (good old knock threshold) but i wanted to find the general consensus.

I should probably invest in a EGT gauge too one of these days...

[JZA70 R]

What ECU & engine you have
Stock 1J & turbos. Apexi Power FC (A.P Engineering Pro)

How you are tuning that ecu
I chose to ignore the opportunity to tune with the novelty hand controller and instead purchased the FC Datalogit instead. (Which gives you FULL control over the ecu with greater tuning flexibility.

What wideband o2 and knock detection do you use and how is it integrated with your ecu
I use an Innovate LC-1 wideband kit which has both digital and analogue outputs. The digital output is going to an Innovate XD-16 digital gauge and the analogue output is going to the FC-Datalogit which logs AFR against other engine parameters in real-time. (something I believe is essential for tuning) The wideband can also be used with the datalogit to provide closed loop feedback for greater fuel economy when cruising but I believe this can be achieved by tuning the base map directly in turn eliminating tuning gremlins closed loop can create.

As for knock detection, It doesn’t take long to learn what a knock sounds like (real knock) yet I rely on the 1JZ's factory knock sensors which is logged by the FC-Datalogit.
I have recently acquired a noise amplifier kit from a friend, with 6 channels and noise cancelling earphones, but they are taking some time to get used to. They pick up misfiring really well.

Are you using a Dyno or street to tune, or both?
Street. After dark, little traffic, long roads with plenty of room to pull off the side.
I had access to a Dyno Dynamics Dynamometer once upon a time (was even trained on how to use it) But it has since been sold : (

Are you tuning from blank maps or using a 'base map' or someone else’s hard work
The Power FC comes with a complete base fuel and timing map which has been a HUGE help to me when initially getting started however both my fuel and timing map no longer share anything in common. I would dare say I wouldn’t be at this stage in tuning if I had to start from a blank map, especially without a dyno :S
As for using other peoples maps, to use as a reference and get ideas sure, but you would be a fool to think someone elses map (even with the same mods) would be a plug n play affair.

Your opinion on withholding tuning tips or secrets or even your own data and maps from persons and for what reasons?
I don’t have a problem sharing what I’ve learnt and what I know. Id also be happy to publish any data from my ecu providing I get a chance to explain it.

What modifications you have done to your engine and how they affect your existing tune, or how they are have increased/decreased difficulty to perform further tuning
I installed 2JZ injectors (440cc) from 1JZ injectors (370cc) and decided to retune the fuel map rather than use a quick and easy injector size correction method.

Your experience from tuning timing.
Harder to tune than fuel. Even harder without a dyno.
I’ve learnt lots but still know nothing hahaha, I hope to get a better understanding from this thread and other tuning documents/experiences. I believe you need a dyno to fine tune ignition timing.

Your experience from tuning fuel.
The Power FC has several different ways of tuning fuel, I’ve learnt which is the best method which I will talk about later.

Your experience from tuning around knock.
I tune my fuel (AFR's) first (with lazy ignition timing), then adjust timing to knock threshold (for certain parts of the map). Knock is proving to be unpredictable for me and my setup, I’m hoping I can overcome this before my engine gets destroyed :S

How intimate you are with your ecu, have you learnt every feature and what it does?
I wouldn’t say I’ve learnt every feature but I’ve definitely fiddled with everything. I make an effort to learn how each function works. It’s pretty exciting when you learn something new even on a 'basic' ecu like the Power FC.

[thechuckster]

What ECU & engine you have
1. Megasquirt v2.2 board with MsExtra Hires firmware

How you are tuning that ecu
2. Laptop+passenger and also post-event data-log analyis... plus some guess work

What wideband o2 and knock detection you use and how its intergrated with your ecu
3. Innovate LC1 wideband and no knock. ECU can take 0-5V input from Innovate controller and 2nd output from controller used to drive 0-5V led bar graph forrealtime display.

Are you using a Dyno or street to tune, or both?
4. Butt dyno plus data logs

Are you tuning from blank maps or using a 'base map' or someone elses hard work
5. Auto-generated fuel map for base (was extremely rich!) and then tuning for AFR. Spark map based on 18RG/R curve and additional info from here:
http://powerpage.dk/tuning_ignition-...tsmap_v106.xls
and here:
http://amiles.com.au/IgnitionTimingEstimator_Modded.xls

Your opinion on withholding tuning tips or secrets or even your own data and maps from persons and for what reasons?
6. The Megasquirt is/was developed much like an open source software tho the original developers control/restrict access to certain parts of the design.
The owner of each configuration has the right to do with it what they will - but if it's based on public information then there is a hope (definitely not a requirement) that configurations files are made available in much the same manner.
Likewise, if the tuning software is based on freely provided code/software, then any derivations need to be made open in much the same manner.
Example: i used Chris_rg's fuel and timing maps as a basis for the off-boost portions of my fuel and timing maps - without them, I would have wasted a lot of time getting to that point - and following the drive to Dubbo in which Wilbo did a lot of cruise/accel tuning, I posted the configuration file along with screen shots of pertinent maps.
I'm a supporter of the open source software development model and I see how it is applicable to other kind of projects other than software. It encourages information sharing and businesses can and do make money out of it providing services that further enhance the 'open' model.
I do not agree with tuners locking out vehicle owners from their own ECU but that discussion belongs in another thread.

What modifications you have done to your engine and how they effect your existing tune, or how they are have increased/decreased difficulty to perform further tuning
7. Several issues in the initial engine design made tuning difficult:
- i used a large throttle body that was unsuited to motor - it made off boost response variable and tuning off-boost acceleration near-impossible to get right without running perpetually rich and negating any cruise/idle economy tuning).
- the plenum was too small - and combined with the over-sized throttle it compounded the off-boost acceleration tuning.


Your experience from tuning timing.
8. Difficult - i started with a guesstimate for the on-boost areas of the map. I did find that changes to timing were able to stress the cooling system much more than fueling changes.
Example: i drove up to Toowoomba on a hot/dry day - i had recently gone drag racing at Willowbank and had arbitrarily increased timing over the whole map by 2 degrees to take advantage of cold night air. On route, I had to revert that change as the cooling system was not coping when over-taking and the increased EGTs made the O2 sensor controller report and over-emp error and stop returning accurate AFRs.
If I was to revisit the ignition timing, I would probably do it on a Dyno to aim for peak power combined with sensible EGTs.


Your experience from tuning fuel.
9. Difficult and a lot easier with a helper. I stuffed around with fuel maps for quite some time - but a night with Wilbo driving the laptop, we were able to get a fairly sensible fuel map for cruise and power acceleration.
Further analysis of data-logging achieved minor improvements but nothings beats actual driving conditions for getting a sensible fuel map.

Your experience from tuning around knock.
10. was no longer an issue after changing from a non-retarding timing system to something with a FMIC and boost retard. I never had a knock sensor. The previous turbo config (draw-thru carbi, water injection, no inercooler) was very prone to pinging under acceleration.

How intimate you are with your ecu, have you learnt every feature and what it does?
11. The MSEFI/MSExtra system has lots of features but using some of the esoteric bits does requires testing and experimentation. I found it a challenge to learn, but since becoming comfortable with it, I find looking at other systems fairly easy.
I think I understand the system fairly well but without staying on top of current developments, I get lost in the feature creep/development process.


re: AFR tuning - my ECU has an AFR target map (2 actually if you enable it) that maps RPM versus MAP to provide a range of AFR targets based on load and engine speed ... obviously values that fall between cells are calculated so there is no arbitrary stepping from one AFR to another.

I'll see if I can find where I posted my most recent maps and edit the post.

fwiw, example pic (for an NA engine) of AFR target with the MSExtra firmware/software:

[JZA70 R]

Has anyone got any good articles/things to read on tuning timing?... has to be relevant to at least forced induction...

all i can remember is
as a general rule of thumb, timing generally increases until peak torque, then flattens, then climbs again as rpm increases.
however that isnt really working for me atm.

[thechuckster]

you may have to wade thru a lot of hardware posts to get useful info, but it may be helpful: http://www.msextra.com/viewforum.php?f=89

XLS file used to setup ignition tables (is used as a starting point only): http://amiles.com.au/IgnitionTimingEstimator_Modded.xls

This is also helpful: http://powerpage.dk/tuning_ignition-...tsmap_v106.xls


edit: my timing table after the drive to Dubbo:


I was focussing on ensuring that there was adequate timing retard on boost - the advance stops higher than the mechanical dizzi and at a higher rpm.

[1JZ-Rolla]

Has anyone got any good articles/things to read on tuning timing?... has to be relevant to at least forced induction...

all i can remember is
as a general rule of thumb, timing generally increases until peak torque, then flattens, then climbs again as rpm increases.
however that isnt really working for me atm.

For a fairly mild forced induction piston engine setup (ie: no wild duration cams, reasonably responsive turbo making full boost before 4000rpm, pump fuel etc), your description above is pretty much on the money...Peak torque is the most likely point for detonation to occur (as combustion pressures are highest, usually coinciding with the point where full boost is reached, give or take a bit), however once past this point, as volumetric efficiency (VE) starts to drop away (and corresponding torque) you can start to reintroduce a few degrees of timing incrementally without any detonation, and helping to "hold" the torque & therefore power curve from tapering off as quickly.

Similarly, you will usually find that you need to reduce the injector opening time as RPM climbs also, as again the drop in VE will require less fuel as the engine is breathing less air for a given crank rotation. It is typical to see AFR plots tapering richer as RPM increases past peak torque unless corrected in the fuel mapping.

As far as ignition retard with boost is concerned, as a rule of thumb, between 1.0-1.5 degrees of retard per psi boost is a good place to start. Similar to YLD's response for fuel tuning though, this is less critical at the transition phase between 0-4psi or so, where you can usually get away with less ignition retard (say only 2 degrees retarded incrementally from 0-4psi) and a slightly leaner mixture. Be aware however that potentially your engine can spend long periods in this range (picture climbing a hill on the highway in top gear) so be particularly careful to road tune this situation with a set of knock-ears or similar at reasonably low rpm to ensure no detonation.

In my experience (specifically with 4AGTE, 1GGTE & 1JZGTE, RB20, & Twincam RB30 engines which all share pretty similar tuning properties) the rate of ignition retard can be REDUCED once you get closer to 20psi on pump fuel at over 6000 rpm, there seems to be a point at higher boost where aggressive timing retard will only result in making the same or less power even though you are increasing the boost, as you are simply starting the firing process too late in the cycle to take advantage of the higher boost. If you get to this point and find that doing this just creates detonation however, then you either need to run a better fuel, or have reached a point where flow restriction is holding you back from getting any extra air into the motor despite the extra boost. For example, both my 4AGTE & 1JZGTE have been able to happily wear 18-20 degrees of total ignition timing at 20psi boost & 6500rpm on 98 octane pump fuel.


**Of course please don't blame me if you decide to go and stuff 20 psi & 20 degrees of timing into your motor just to see what happens***



By the way JZA70 R, what do you mean by "that isn't really working for me atm" with regards to timing principles?


Cheers
Phil

[JZA70 R]

thanks for that, good info.

never mind my comment, im a bit in over my head atm with tuning timing. slowly getting it sorted.

[JZA70 R]

added two documents worth a read, one is a link and the other is an attachment in the first post.