Water and Methanol Injection

[NME308]

If you have a fuel injector in the main fuel system fail or the main filter clogs or the fuel pump fails then you can lose an engine in the blink of an eye just the same as your water meth system failing. I use the same fail safes for my water meth as for my main fuel system.

Water meth injected pre turbo cools the charge at the point it is being heated and has worked very well for me. I have seen no compressor damage in 3 years of drag strip and street use - I did however lose a turbo to injesting a wayward water meth nozzle that fell off... I use a volume of 1/3 water meth on top of my calculated fuel useage. On 98 octane pump fuel and no intercooler I saw over 30psi boost on many drag strip passes. I absolutely agree with other posters above mentioned benefits of extra ignition timing which can be run with water meth which allow complete combustion within the cylinder!

If you run a 'dumb' system like me then make sure it is kept filled and serviced!!!

Cheers,
Jason

[ctrain]

would a pump like this work?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/12V-DC-16...item3a73622fd9

i think 160PSI is abit much, im leaning towards the same version but 70PSI due to the nozzle restriction

[George]

river, why not use both aircon and WI? Mate shown me his mate's water-meth audi rs4 the other day. The thing I liked most about the car was it's ability to instantly accelerate in any situation, for example quickly overtake some slow-mover. Maybe that feature isn't very useful in your region.

[sc400]

river, why not use both aircon and WI? Mate shown me his mate's water-meth audi rs4 the other day. The thing I liked most about the car was it's ability to instantly accelerate in any situation, for example quickly overtake some slow-mover. Maybe that feature isn't very useful in your region.

to many cops hiding in the bushes with laser speed guns lol

[river]

Hi,

Yeah, not worth the loss of license. Besides, Trini has plenty of get up and go with intercooled turbo that kicks in at 2800rpm, bolted to the greatest 4 cylinder engine the world has ever seen... and she's got air con.

Besides, my forte is just cruising, playing 70s music and looking suave and cool... picking up the chicks, though I must admit you've got some lush honeys over there in Russia. And, if you really loved these forums you'd open a new thread in the Non Car Section and put some pics of those Russki babes there for us all to enjoy.

Anyway, this is OT. Let's get back to talking about WI. I like this thread and reading what people wish to do and have done.

seeyuzz
river

[George]

Though cops and chicks are OT, car performance is still closely related to WI. I was just talking about one of the features exclusive to WI only. As such, WI offers some unique possibilities to your car but it's still up to you whether to lose license/pick up chicks/cruise slowly/etc.

[boxh34d]

@boxh34d

the place that built the engine had always run the nozzle pre turbo, its been fine for a decade then i dont see any need in changing it, when the turbo shits itself, then i'll put it post turbo

Certainly can't argue with that kind of reliability!!!!

As for the pump you posted, it depends on what kind of flow the pump provides at the 160psi pressure. Most suppliers state max pressure, and max flow, not flow at specific pressure. If you had a curve for it, it would make it a lot easier.
5.5L/min sounds like a lot, but it might only be 0.5L/min at 160psi.

[ctrain]

Certainly can't argue with that kind of reliability!!!!

As for the pump you posted, it depends on what kind of flow the pump provides at the 160psi pressure. Most suppliers state max pressure, and max flow, not flow at specific pressure. If you had a curve for it, it would make it a lot easier.
5.5L/min sounds like a lot, but it might only be 0.5L/min at 160psi.

yep i get ya, i wouldnt be suprised if what you wrote about the certain pressure turned out to be true, it does look like a shitty pump, a website referred me to this pump

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too..._357081_357081

apparently this guy whos site directed me to this one been using this pump for a decade and hasnt failed him yet, looks alot better too, and the Shurflo brand is well known aswell for quality

[NME308]

It sounds like you do not have any specs on the nozzle itself?
I flow test my spray nozzle into a bucket i.e. given pressure over one minute = x liters in bucket. For my system I can simply use the compressor to pressurize the meth tank to the exact boost I wish to apply and perform measurements. In your position I would probably use a boost referenced bypass regulator so you can 'tune' the water meth amount for just about any old pump you put in the system. It will cost a couple of extra dollars to setup intially but I feel would be worth it long run. The higher the boost the greater the pressure and more flow.

Cheers,
Jason

[ctrain]

It sounds like you do not have any specs on the nozzle itself?
I flow test my spray nozzle into a bucket i.e. given pressure over one minute = x liters in bucket. For my system I can simply use the compressor to pressurize the meth tank to the exact boost I wish to apply and perform measurements. In your position I would probably use a boost referenced bypass regulator so you can 'tune' the water meth amount for just about any old pump you put in the system. It will cost a couple of extra dollars to setup intially but I feel would be worth it long run. The higher the boost the greater the pressure and more flow.

Cheers,
Jason

no i dont know anything about the nozzle specs, i'll take it off and have a crack at that bucket test, i'll look into this boost referenced bypass regulator thing aswell, thanks jase

[banana_socks]

What are your thoughts on needing a progressive controller? Most kits I've seen just use a simple boost switch, so inject a fixed amount of water regardless of how much air is flowing through the engine. Some kits can give progressive control based on boost, but if you're on full boost by 3000rpm its still not going to make a difference.
Only the real expensive kits use AFM or injector duty cycle to adjust the water amount. A lot of people seem to get good results just using a switch, so how much benefit is gained from going full progressive?

WI is used a fair bit by the MR2 crowd, as intake temps can be a big problem.

[slipway]

cheap option for diy motor speed contol
http://www.autospeed.com.au/cms/article.html?&A=1522
http://www.autospeed.com.au/cms/article.html?&A=1528
http://www.autospeed.com.au/cms/A_1539/article.html

[HIZOKU]

Anyone got before and after runs like with meth and with out? just wanting to get a rough idea that is all

[NME308]

Well not exactly performance figures personally. Having said that the performance is somewhat directly linked to being able to complete a drag strip pass with spark plugs intact!!!
What I have is burn the ends off the plugs detonation trying to run 24psi boost on pump fuel if the water meth is not working and 35psi on pump fuel if the water meth is working all with no intercooler. That is the difference between a high 13 at 96mph and a flat 12 second quarter mile at 115mph in my case.

Also on the subject of whether a water meth controller is necessary - no it isn't. I prefer to have a delivery curve just so as to keep the engine from being fed excess to at medium boost and marginal if you decide to wind boost up more than original intention!

Cheers,
Jason

[Duk]

1 thing to note about the variable flow water injection systems that are out there, they just about all change voltage to the pump to change the pump's speed and so its flow rate.
When you are pumping against a fixed flow restriction (the spray nozzle) and vary the pumps flow rate, you will get differing water pressures. The less flow you want/need, the lower the water pressure. The trouble with varying the system pressure to vary flow is that the spray characteristics of the nozzle can vary a lot. With less pressure, typically the nozzle won't atomize the water as well as it would at higher pressure.
This makes a good argument for fixed flow systems.
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html are strong advocates of fixed rate systems. That's not to stop a person from implementing multistage system of primary, secondary and maybe even third stage set up to try and keep water/fuel ratios reasonably close.

Incidentally, http://autospeed.com/cms/title_AutoS...8/article.html is an article on how to use a very high pressure oscillating piston pump incredibly similar to the RBR system, but for a fraction of the price.
I actually bought the same pump and nozzle but have never used them in a car. I have done some testing with the outside unit of my split system airconditioner and noted some impressive temperature drop and nearly complete evaporation of the water.

For my up and coming turbo'd standard 7AFE, I plan to use 2 stages of water injection. The 1st stage will be using an FJO PWM solenoid valve just after the intercooler. This will be controlled by the Adaptronic and water flow will come from the usual bypassing water injection pump that get sold by AEM and Snow Performance. This will provide a variable flow rate at a fixed pressure. Solenoid duty cycle will be determined by injector duty cycle.
The second stage will be 4 small nozzles mounted in each of the inlet runners. These will be fed by an oscillating piston pump. This will be switched on at a fixed injector duty cycle point and will be constant flow.