Celica/MR2 front LSD into AE95

[PrettyCoolWagon]

Hi I'm interested in fitting a front LSD to the AE95 4WD wagon which uses and E-series box.

E57F5

KAAZ TRD and CUSCO don't make LSD's for the front.



The Celica and MR2 crowd appear to have swapped a few parts around..

Does someone know more detailed info about spline counts, shaft lengths, crown gears that might be compatible/interchangeable etc?

Thanks - Jed

[jonathan yee]

i believe oppylock has a front LSD in his st165, but i think it came with his car so he may not be able to tell you brand/make.

i don't think an mr2 lsd would fit the awd tranny.

gt4's have an open front diff, viscous centre diff and torsen rear IIRC.

what about quaiffe? do they?

[PrettyCoolWagon]

nope... nobody...

there's also the AE92's.. Front LSD's are made for them but they use a C-series box...
This article got me thinking it might be possible..
http://www.st162.net/forum/showthrea...gearbox-to-2wd

[knightrous]

Your best chance is to cross reference any other cars that have the same open center diff and see if they have an LSD available.
Cross reference part numbers on toyodiy.com

[jonathan yee]

AFAIK the gt4/mr2 turbo and V6 camry all have the same spline for the diff side of the shafts. lengths and hubs splines vary tho.

with any luck this will go happen
http://www.alltrac.net/phpBB2/viewto...+lsd&start=420

[knightrous]

The differentials in the AWD gearboxes in the AE95 and the ST185 are vastly different :S

AE95


ST185


The diffs in these things are not like normal diff either, the center diff for the transfer box is essentially built off the side of it.
Custom made is about as off the shelf as you'll get I think.

[PrettyCoolWagon]

Jonathon - I've seen that website, they haven't really got anywhere yet and it's all about the 2wd celicas.

Knightrous.
Cross referencing the part numbers is good advice and thanks for the pics.
At first glance those 2 diagrams do look 'vastly' different but once you study them a lot of the part numbers are the same.
It's just the lay out of each diagram is presented differently.
It's a bit confusing though because the housing shares the same number yet the diagrams are noticably different.

Some interesting comments here:

http://www.yotatech.com/f116/anyone-...-5-diff-74181/

In my dealings with trucks, cars etc. LSD's are awsome for strait line traction/mudding etc however in a corner the LSD can actually make a vehicle MORE prone to loose control, heres why. With a normal open type differential when cornering on a slippery surface the outside tire loads up with the weght of the truck adding slightly more grip to that tire. At the same time torque is only applied to the inside tire with less weght, so it quickly overcomes the friction of the surface and begins to spin. The outside tire with no torque on it is handleing all the lateral acceleration around the corner (basically its not helping to pull the truck allong but since no power is appied to it the outside wheel is more likely to maintain grip.

With the LSD when the inside tire begins to slip torque is quickly transfered to the outside wheel causing it to loose traction rather than grip. Folks in the MR2 community are familiar with this. Since the cars are rear wheel drive this event is reffered to as "snap oversteer". Its basically the moment where the LSD transfers power to the outside wheel and the back end goes from having HUGE ammounts of grip and hence lateral G's to an instantanous slide or even spin if the driver isnt paying attention. Lots of fun if you know what your doing BTW

IMO you dont want to drive around with an LSD on the front wheels because it will tend to cause sudden instantanous loss of traction and hence steering. What you should look into for your rig is an electronic locking front diff. that way you can have a bit more predictabillity on icey roads but when you go 4wheeling you can flip a switch and lock the front diff. Best of both worlds for a truck. I would not even consider the supra LSD but yea if you want a cheap alternative that will give improved offroad grip without the issues assosiated with a locked diff, then go for it. I have 2 MKIII supras here at the shop if you want pics. Send me an email if you want more detailed information about how to swap the differential/rig gear etc.. BTW the LSD in the MR2 tranny should work aswell. They are both viscous type couplings and my have issues when used in extreme offroad applications. You may want to look into a gear or clutch type LSD.
__________________

That's probably why there not an available item..

So...
Is the ST185 front diff better than the AE95's?

and.. can the AE95's gear sets/ratios be swapped into the 185's housing...???

[jonathan yee]

imho that comment is a load of bollocks. the "snap oversteer" is cuased by lifing off the gas mid corner when you realise you've gone in too fast/don't have the balls, this cuases the suspension/tyres to transfer the weight off them and the tyres go from toe out to toe in, and BOOM your facing backwards.

also, LSD in FWD is a different setup to RWD etc, normally you have a 1 way diff, it's open under brakes for turning in and locks up when you boot it out of the corner.

LSD's as with anyother performance mod needs to be used/controlled in the correct manner.

also that links is specifically for getting quaiffe to make an front LSD for the gt4.

[PrettyCoolWagon]

Apologies, Jonathan's correct.
The link he posted is for front LSD in GT4's ... been reading a lot of forums lately got that confused with another thread with the same posters.. will keep my eye on that one..
This seems to cover the MR2 side of the question:
Re: Front LSD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Postby Frankencar » Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:58 pm
According to the feller who built my gearbox, there are only gear ratio differences internally. Since he used to build the boxes for the toyota factory team when they ran Paris-Dakar, I'm inclined to think he knoweth whereof he speaks. We both looked into putting a front lsd in there while it was still in tiny pieces on his workbench and he decided that the amount of material that would need to be removed around the diff housing to accomodate the most likely looking lsd candidate (mr2) was too much to risk, and I was already bleeding money into the project like a sick cow in a pirahna-filled river, that I gave up on the idea. So i am curious if someone's found a helical front lsd that'd fit without machine work. That might be enough incentive for me to take that damn gearbox outta that damn car, again, and see what all the front lsd fuss is about, next rally.
===

Jonathan: I don't think the ^^yotatech^^ comments are a load of bollocks.
I was watching a 4wd show last night and they were commenting on how permanent LSD can be great in mud and snow but dangerous on road and sand, recommending a switchable system (air-lockers) that allows the LSD to be turned on or off to suit the desired application.
These comments from http://www.4wdaction.com.au/articles...ts-diff?page=3 confirm the same for 'full-time' 4wd systems
an LSD is always in some way acting on the differential and would reduce high-range touring handling. It would also dramatically change the on-road handling characteristics of a full-time 4WD. So if you're coming through a corner and you start to apply power mid-turn, a LSD will want to limit this difference in speed as the wheels go around the corner. This is when the front end wants to push away from the corner instead of turning in.

Not so helpful in my quest for an AE95 specific 'all-rounder" set up..
From what I've read there were some GT4's that used a viscous front diff-lock ..but not much info on that.. and I image not worth the $$$

A bit of toe out on the front wheels might help with the AE95's full-time 4wd system..
The best front system for full-time 4WD might be an auto locker,
http://www.4wdsystems.com.au/index.php?id=29 but no such thing would 've ever been made for Toyota's all-trac system
The weight and roll center would also be a factor when cornering on tarmac..
(In comparison the AE95 would be reasonably light.)

More research to do..

[knightrous]

Knightrous.
Cross referencing the part numbers is good advice and thanks for the pics.
At first glance those 2 diagrams do look 'vastly' different but once you study them a lot of the part numbers are the same.
It's just the lay out of each diagram is presented differently.
It's a bit confusing though because the housing shares the same number yet the diagrams are noticably different.

The part groups are the same, but the part numbers are different as well. If you look at part group 41310 - CASE ASSY, DIFFERENTIAL. You will notice the AE95 uses part 41310‑12090 while the ST185 uses 41310‑20230. Part group 41331F - GEAR, FRONT DIFFERENTIAL SIDE, the AE95 uses part 41331‑12030 while the ST185 uses 41331‑20020.
In center the diff, you will notice the AE95 uses 4 spider gears while the ST185 uses 5 spider gears.

The more I look at the part numbers, the less I find they have in common. It really looks like there is no off the shelf part swapping option. Custom or nothing

[PrettyCoolWagon]

Yeah.. have to agree ...unless the GT4 community get a group buy happening.. and the item is proven..

Sounds like what I've got will do fine for my fun little wagon.
AE95's first gear is quite low. Meaning 'ghey' - for street use but good for 'soft road' crawls - have already put this to the test many times in stock form, with boggy mud (not too wet) up to the axles. So long as momentum is kept up there's no problem, just lots of fun!
Have mapped out suspension raise..
Standard Toyota all-trac centre diff-lock,
rear LSD,
7AGZE for torque...
Put the right wheel & tyre combo on and she should climb and crawl quite well.

[jonathan yee]

i'm referring to his comments about the mr2 being bollocks.

1: the mr2 got the reputation for snap over steer with the rev 1 release (89-91) these had a different suspension setup on the rear, and the MOST didn't even have LSD's. esp the NA

2: the rev2+ had revised rear suspension (along wih brakes, and fixed front/non adj tierod ends) which did much to kerb the snap oversteer problem being found by "novice" reporters.

3: the rev3+ turbo is most common to have a viscous LSD. but still it isn't garuntee'd and still most NA mr2's don't have LSD's in their s54.

noone's ever blamed the LSD for snap over steer, nor anyone said that they're less prone to snap over steer without the LSD, simply because that isn't the reason for it.

many mr2 drivers that use it for the track prefer the earlier design, basically the earlier susp provides better traction and handling, but it's more harder to control if you go over the limit.

on to LSD's in general. not all LSD's are created the same. the cusco ones and many others you can adjust/orientate the plates differently to change the characteristics of the diff, they can be more or less aggressive depending on how you want.

generally you wouldn't put the same spec rear diff that they use in drift RWD vehicles in a FWD or for the front diff of an AWD vehicle.

nor is there any taking into account that if your mid corner and you push it too much to loose traction (FWD/AWD) with an LSD, what do you think would happen if you had an open diff? still going to loose traction and not go where you want to.

if you can't apply the correct amount of throttle to control what ever vehicle with what ever setup you have then who's to blame? the vehicle components or the driver?

if you apply so much throttle to make the LSD break traction on the wheel that currently has too much then obviously you applied too much. esp as you'd be having both wheels at that point without traction.

we aren't talking about locker diffs. these are only for off road use.

[PrettyCoolWagon]

fair enough regarding all the MR2 info Jonathon, it sounds like you got it all covered a lot more than the other guy and I agree that it's up to the driver to know when and how much throttle to apply for their awd/fwd/rwd when cornering... (and braking for that matter)

You said: "the cusco ones and many others you can adjust/orientate the plates differently to change the characteristics of the diff, they can be more or less aggressive depending on how you want."

I'm interested to know more about this for my rear cusco 1.5 lsd... All the instruction are in Japanese.
Any links you know of would be very much appreciated

When you say: "
generally you wouldn't put the same spec rear diff that they use in drift RWD vehicles in a FWD or for the front diff of an AWD vehicle."
I'm guessing you have street use in mind..?
I probably could've made it clearer from the start of the thread, my main intention is to focus on the AE95 with off-road use in mind hence my reference to locker diffs..
This is how I came to start considering the celica's front lsd.. It would be good if such an lsd could be turned on-off with a button as in:
'off' for street and 'on' for dirt.

[AdrianS]

Jonathon - I would disgree somewhat.

A rear lsd won't give "snap oversteer", but where I would get the inside rear wheel spinning with the open diff in the aw11 when I applied too much throttle in a turn, I now get grip until both wheels spin and the tail steps out with the helical lsd. Much fun!
It is not just an mr2 thing, it happens in any rwd car with sufficient power.

Fwd i am not familiar with, and my lsd-equipped 4wd van has too little power and too high a center of gravity to try it.

ps to be pedantic, the '86 aw11 mr2 is rev 1 (and the best handling in my opinion :-))

[PrettyCoolWagon]

Just a reminder, the main purpose of the thread was to discuss front LSD in AE95.
Meaning E-series front LSD options and possible results in a full-time 4wd set up.

The reason is to find out if the off-road capabilities can be improved?