Need help diagnosing problem with TA22 2T engine.

[Sirsh]

Hi all,

I recently brought a 2T TA22 Celica and I've noticed it blowing white smoke out of the exhuast. I pulled the air filter off of the Redline weber and noticed it was full of oil. I degreased it and cleaned it, chucked it back in and then started it up let it idle for a while and then took the air filter off. There was new oil in it. What is the cause of this? Ive heard it could possibly be the compression rings in the engine which have gone, what do you think?

[Silly Rabbit]

Does it blow white smoke all the time or only on start up?

Is the air filter attached to the rocker cover breather pipe or independant?

I had a similar problem in my '22 when the rings were broken. It would spew out oil from the breather pipe and into the air filter. Get a compression test to see what the figures are like and that may answer some questions. Also white smoke can be generated from coolant getting into the combustion chambers so a compression test should tell you whether you have a blown head gasket / cracked head.

[Sirsh]

Only on start up and when its in neutral and u give it some gas. THe air filter is attached to the rocker cover breather pipe. What did you go through to replace the rings? and how much ect and where did u get them from?

[NME308]

Hi there mate,
Congrats on your purchase!
Sounds like you bought the brother to the one I bought many years ago as my first car... 'Genuine low kilometer one owner little old lady' car said the salesman... Turned out to have cracked rings and needed an engine rebuild - which nevertheless turned my old car into a nice reliable get around.

The cost is likely to be around $3000 for an engine rebuild if you drop it off to a professional shop and have it all done properly. If you are handy with the tools and prepared to skimp on new bits where old look reusable you can significantly cut this cost. If you havn't built an engine before then you need the full workshop manual or someone who is trained to guide you!

Hope you get the old girl sorted and back out on the road where she belongs soon!

Cheers,
Jason

[Silly Rabbit]

I agree with Jason. If you can get your hands on an workshop manual and have a friend or such who has some knowledge in this you can do it yourself. If it does come down to low compression and the need to do the rings then this can be done in the car but with a bit of fiddling around. You'll be taking the head and the sump off to undo the pistons off the crank and to push them out the top of the engine. A light hone of the bores and a new set of rings and conrod bearings you should be on your way. That plus a VRS gasket set which is the set of gaskets needed for a job like this (head gasket, manifold gaskets, rocker cover gasket plus more). I'd say you could probably get the parts for the job for under a couple of hundred. Also wise to send the head off to be cleaned and decked if needed. This would probably cost about $300 for a basic going over.

The beauty of this is that the engine is one of the most straight forward and easy to play with. I did the rings and bearings on a Friday evening with the help of my friend who is a mechanic. He pretty much drank most of the time and just advised or helped when it was needed. As you can see the piston was pretty FUBAR prior to it being removed . Good luck with it if you go down this path and yes you get a massive sense of satisfaction in doing the job yourself.

...or just get a change over engine from HM or Gem Engines for $2.5K

Giving the cylinders a hone


Yes I did put a new / secondhand piston back in it


All back in and ready for the head to go back on.

[Sirsh]

Wow guys thank you so much for the information! Silly rabbit, where did you get the rings from? I have seen on a website BRDracing I think it was where they make them new. How did you hone them? Thanks so much for this information!

[NME308]

I'm sure Silly Rabbit will pipe up with where he got the rings from, but just about any automotive supply shop like REPCO or Supercrap should be able to order them in for you.
The honing process is applied to the engine cylinder bore itself a bit like this one (except the cylinder will still be in the engine!) How to hone an engine cylender - YouTube

Cheers,
Jason

[Sirsh]

Oh okay, luckily I work for Supercheap haha. 25% discount on everything woohoo. I've found a set of pistons on BRD Racing's website which I am interested in, If im replacing the piston rings I'll probably replace the pistons themselves aswell, would this liberate any more power from the engine? Also, the head is going to be ported and polished along with the honing. (My 2T has a redline weber set up and Genie 4-1 extractors.)

[NME308]

The short answer to new pistons liberating more power is - no!

The long answer is that if the current pistons are not damaged in any way and you do not need to bore the cylinders oversized to clean up any damage (as long as the honing process cleans up the bores) then a new set of rings will bring the power back up to where it should be.

Now of course if the replacement pistons had larger dome for higher compression then this can give an increase in power as can shaving the head and leaving in the original pistons. Keep in mind that each point of compression an engine is raised (with no other modifications) an approximate 3.2% increase in power can be expected. So assuming a 9.0:1 compression ratio from the factory and horsepower of say 75 then raising compresson to 10.5:1 should see approximatly 78.6 horsepower. Not startling is it!!!???

Given you are talking about having the head ported and you are already equipped with weber carb and extractors I would recommend a mild cam (new or reground doesn't matter) as the perfect partner! Without forced induction there is only so much air that can fit past a valve which is open for a fixed and relatively short time - particularly pertaining to a factory cam in these old girls. By fitting a larger cam i.e. longer valve open duration there is more opportunity for air to enter the cylinder taking advantage of the other breathing improvments of your weber and extractors.

So new pistons or shaving head or new cam or all of the above??? Well the first two both refer to compression and the more compression your engine has the finer the tuning window is. I mean that detonation is always an increasing danger with increased compression and can sometimes demand high octane fuel just to avoid engine damage. Others will have different ideas but for me I would not go higher than 10:1 compression if it were to be a street driven so as to allow you to run on whatever petrol was available. With only 3.2% power increase for each point of compression raised as per above the power returns vs the detonation danger are not particularly good. A new cam would be a definate if it were my engine as this will give more power just by itself than the max compression you can feasably run in the engine could offer.

If money was available here is my engine:
Ported and polished head as you suggested. No shaving except a whisker as recommended to ensure flat surface. A basic head service here as well.
New valve springs to match the next item in the list.
Reground cam (Wade or Tighe cams) of around 230 degrees duration @ 50 thou lift with 108 degrees lobe separation.
Overbore the engine to next size up (I never go maximum bore size if it is not necessary as you have to go a new block for any future repair) and hone finish of course.
Fit new pistons and rings to match new larger bore. Pistons selected to around 10:1 compression ratio. This can be a tad more complex than buying a set advertised as a certain compression ratio...
New engine bearings and gaskets/seals all round since we are going this far.
Now if we are assembling this ourselves then remember - cleanliness is right next to godliness (and not just in a cheap dictionary)!!!

Experimental fine tuning of fuel and timing will be required but should give you a very impressive power up compared to what you have right now! It will sound grumpy for extra testerone points too!

I had a slightly milder version of the above engine in my first celica and wish I new a lot more about tuning back then as it could have been so much better than it was...

Cheers,
Jason

[Silly Rabbit]

I got the rings and bearings through the engine reconditioners who did the head. The rings were from a company called Hastings and I can't remember who made the bearings. Just easier for the reconditioners to get these in instead of me frigging around. I can't for the life of me find the receipt with the part numbers on it though. All standard or original sizes though. They also got the VRS gaskets kit but as Jason said all these parts are easily obtained through Repco or Supercheap.

Have you done a compression check on it yet?

[Sirsh]

Jason, thanks for much for that insight into what I should do. The cam change sounds like a very good idea, what type of cam would give the TA22 a lumpy mean sound? I don't think I'm going to replace the pistons if they are in good condition. The pistion rings I found at work (supercheap) there were some in cast which were from ACL and were $69.95 for a set of 4 i think? (do i need 8?) or in Chrome they were $88.95 with the same brand. What do you guys think? is it hard to replace these parts at home? If i changed the Cam does that mean the engine needs to be tuned ect? Thanks so much with this help im really greatful!

Silly Rabbit, I haven't done the compression check yet, that will be done hopefully this week (if not buy wednesday ill do it myself) a mechanic friend is coming over to give it a look. The guy i brought it off said it could possibly be the PCV value? don't see how that would let so much oil into my airfilter. The car on idle doesnt let out white smoke only when the car is first started (with and without choke) and when u give it gas. Also, the car seems to be heating up (i pop the bonnet and it seems hot all over). I found a thermostat and gasket in the car (brand new) do you think this bloke might have taken the old one out to hide that it over heats?

Cheers!
- Tyler

[Silly Rabbit]

Does it overheat on the temp gauge? It could be a thermostat or blocked radiator or low coolant levels etc etc. Does it lose water / coolant?. Is the water pump FUBAR and not circulating water in the engine?

As for the rings it will be a set of rings for the 4 pistons. You will get a couple of compression rings and the oil control rings for each cylinder. The oil control ring is shown on the 2nd pic of my post above. So no you won't need 8. Just the set of 4. Cast should be fine.

As for the cam give Wade Camshafts a call on 03 9568 0333. They will be able to give you the right cam for the setup you are using. Just tell them what engine it is going in and what you use the car for and they will suggest a cam profile to match.

Overall I just say wait until you get the compression test done and go from there. Overheating / smoke / oil in the filter will all be signs of a worn engine with worn rings and possibly a blown head gasket / cracked block or cylinder head. And as far as I can remember the 2T doesn't run a PCV valve but someone can correct me on this.

[NME308]

             W a d e   C a m s h a f t s   P t y   L t d 
                                A.B.N 62 004 544 996
      Phone (03)9328 4001   Fax (03) 9329 8318   Email  [email][email protected][/email]
Profile         Actuation            Make/Model                   R/Ratio
444C10     Flat Tappet     Toyota 2T Celica 1600     In 1.5 Ex 1.5 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Cam Lift     Duration    Duration   Valve   Valve   Cam Lift   Phase 
	                 Adv           @050     Clr     Lift       tdc       <)   
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Intake     265	      286             230      0.011   0.254     072      110 
Exhaust    265        286             230      0.011   0.254     054 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        Timing            Timing 
                                         Adv               @050 
                                   Open    Close    Open    Close 
Exhaust                          76        30       48        1.5 
Intake                           36        70        8         41.5
                                           
                                              66             10 
                                        Deg Over-lap    Deg Over-lap

Geez what a mission trying to get the formatting to stay how I attempted to paste it in...

Anyhow that is an example of the exact specs on a camshaft such as I would be putting into a 2T. Mean sound - you bet!

Yes some tuning would be required with such an engine combo such as I described in my post above, but the engine would start/run/drive OK. You would simply fine tune fuel and timing on the go to achieve best performance and driveability.

As long as the bores do not have a lip too large or scoring too deep you could most certainly just re-ring the original pistons and hone the bore. A lip in the bore is created over time at the upper travel of the piston ring and usually can be felt within 10mm of the top of the bore if present. The crome rings for the extra $20 sound like good value and you only need the set of 4 for this engine.

It is not 'hard' to change these parts at home rather I'd call it 'daunting' when you hav'nt ever done it before!!! You would need a good set of metric spanners and sockets, a torque wrench, and the before mentioned workshop manual and/or experienced friend.

The owner you bought the car off is correct in saying the oil is 'just the pcv'... Trouble is the only reason a pcv will be piling oil into the air cleaner is because of massive blow-by caused by badly worn rings or worse. The same reason for the puff of smoke on startup and when you give it some load.

Hmmm Silly Rabbit has overtaken my reply! Hey man the 2t does have a pcv at the top rear of the tappet cover I believe from memory or drivers side front(?).

Cheers,
Jason

[Silly Rabbit]

That's right. The PCV valve is incorporated into the rocker cover *slaps head*. Nice work on the scan of the camshaft profile too Jason.

[banana_socks]

I was under the impression chrome rings were a lot harder to get seated, especially if you've only got a backyard hone job on the bores?
Also with honing whilst the engine is still in the car, how do you avoid getting crap over the crankshaft/etc? I'm thinking of doing a cheap re-ring on my (former) daily.