3SGE Powered Tarmac Rally Car?

[GT4WRC]

Greetings one and all.

I am currently in the throws of building a tarmac rally car. Not an obvious choice, but am using a Rover 220 GTi shell...



...but have ditched the stock 16v turbo motor in favour of a 3SGE. At this stage, I have a base 3S motor which is currently being mated to the Rover gearbox with a custom adapter plate...





I have a fair idea of how I would like to mod the engine which, at the moment, is a Gen II block with a Gen IV head from a Caldina GT-T. I am aiming for around the 230bhp @ flywheel mark which will see over 200 ponies at the wheels thanks to the Quaife straight cut close ratio gearset. Maybe a rev limit around 8 - 9000 to prevent the crank from disintergrating

My thoughts are...

Fully gas flowed head
3 angle cut valves
Stronger valve springs
Shimless cam buckets
Wild cams
Vernier timing wheels
4AGE Blacktop throttle bodies
Aftermarket injectors
Fully enclosed induction system
4 - 1 tubular exhaust manifold
Side exit exhaust
Metal head gasket
0.5mm oversized forged pistons
Around 12:1 compression ratio
Forged rods
Fully balanced crank
TRD shells
ARP head studs etc
Lightweigh flywheel
Twin plate clutch (if it'll fit in the bellhousing)
Remote oil filter
Air cooled oil, cooler (due to sump guard preventing airflow over sump)
ECU - Link, Motec, Autronic?


Thoughts, comments etc on the engine build would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Gary

[thechuckster]

will 4AGE Blacktop throttle bodies be big enough?

seeing as a smooth idle isn't manditory, mount the injectors up the runner away from the head (RX7 style) to improve torque? you're making a custom induction system so injector placing is up to you.

edit: nearly forgot - crazy conversion!! would be great if Australian rallying let you modify cars like you folk in NZ can. Is a shame you can't convert the rover to 4wd and use ST185 or 205 suspension/transmission? ... priced a SADEV box as per the super2000 class?

[takai]

Also, are you sure that the 3S to Rover combination is legal, i cant think of many options which you could use that one under. Khanas maybe.

edit: oh i see you are in NZ.

[mullett]

First off: That's awesome. I can't think of much that you haven't thought of, but with that kind of build, I think you might be a bit conservative with your power hopes. Also, I'd consider drysump, electric waterpump etc... There's a B16A built for off-road racing making 240hp, and that's a 1600 While that's pretty wild, you've also got another 400cc to play with...so maybe 250hp or so is acheivable? or more...

Eitherway. Love your work, that's brilliant.

RM.

[GT4WRC]

Thanks for the feedback.

Varying thoughts on the size of ITBs to go for, but have spoken to a couple of local 'experts' on this subject and they agree that 45 - 47mm would be the correct size to go (The blacktop ones can be bored out to 47mm). Anything bigger may well have a negative effect. Idea would be for a custom rail with different injectors so they aren't mounted in the head. Just a simple case of getting the stock holes filled by the head man.

Drysump would be nice, but would put the build cost right up - something that I'm trying (and often failing) to keep at a sensible level Not mentioned in my list, but a Davies Craig EWP with a controller is going to be used. Will gut the stock water pump and ditch the thermostat. Water pipes/hoses will be at an absolute minimum. One to the rad and one back from the rad. Simple as

As for being conservative, I'd rather aim for an acheivable power level than start spewing bull**** figures in a pathetic attempt to sound cool. If I reach the 230 level I'll be happy. I view anything above that as an added bonus. That way, I won't be disappointed
Gary

[mullett]

Hahaha, I agree with you totally. Better to have real power than paper power Also, with the aim you have for power, maybe some slightly less peaky cams would still give you the power, and more torque...But hey, this thing is going to fly. Got any idea of an overall weight yet?

RM.

[GT4WRC]

I'm hoping for around 1000kg all up. Will be utilising a lot of carbon fibre panels (such as roof, bonnet, tailgate, door skins etc) with fibreglass bumpers and lexan glazing.
Gary

[rx3ip]

i just built a 3sge for track ..this engine doesn't like to see close to 8500 rpm as no3 rod will let go because the crank balance wouldn't take it , to be able to rev over 8500 rpm you need solid crank ( about $2500 ) ... most race 3sge engine in aust rev less than 8500 rpm ..
with flowed head & good bits & still have plenty of torque down low , you will be looking at 230-240 real hp , this is what i get with 50mm TB & motec with super 98
you can have more top end hp with wild cams but will lack bottom tq that you need for rally cars
twin plate not really needed for this power

[WDE_BDY]

Gary, should have at least put this link in so they can see the rest of the car.

http://www.220gti.co.nz/race%20car%20preparation.htm

[Classique71]

Ot gary but id like to chat with you when im over re carbon panelling - might be something we might want to look at while over there for other toyota type applications

[rx3ip]

gt4wrc
i looked at your car profile , it is awesome ... how long do you think to get the car ready to race ? and must cost heaps ... i will be in auckland in 2 weeks time , good luck with the project

[Celica RA45]

just over reved mine yesterday 9100 rpm ,and the cranks are fine just need to be on a diet and loose 2.5 kilos then they will spin up ok ,also longer rods will help as well
also you have a gen 3 cyl head not a beams turbo head as you told me it came off a caldina late model that head has a disy port so its not the same as 5bobs head

[GT4WRC]

No dizzy - has individual coil packs with a crank angle sensor, so is a Gen IV head. Also has markedly different inlet ports to the Gen III head.

I'd much rather have a custom crank made than modify the stock one TBH. It may well be okay, but for my own peace of mind I wouldn't be happy modding the stock one in case it weakens it.

Assume increasing the rod length is to increase the TDC time increasing power and due to less throw, allows a shoter skirted piston to eb used?
Gary

[Celica RA45]

also slows the piston speed so you could rev it to 8800 rpm easy as well go to the trd site and look under the altezza 3sge there rods are 146mm long compared to 138mm for the std rod ,also if the crank is done right you wontr have a problem with the crank weakening as you put it

[GT4WRC]

Was think of a 10k + rev limit
Gary