The ambitious goal - Early bigport 4agze into AE95 sr5

[TERRA Operative]

we had flow reversion and a loss of flow through the radiator on a Jeep that was lifted by 7" and had a bonnet with a rear vent, the door sills were at your thighs (until it was rolled). We had to put a blanking plate on the vent opening to stop the car overheating at freeway speeds, the flow reversion was that bad!

my best advice is to research, research and more research. Have a look at what other people have done and take the best elements of what you find.
Also make sure your mods all work together. You'll be surprised how interrelated a lot of mods are.

[PrettyCoolWagon]

....more research. Have a look at what other people have done and take the best elements of what you find.
Also make sure your mods all work together. You'll be surprised how interrelated a lot of mods are.

So true... the domino effect!

[PrettyCoolWagon]

Was that jeep charged with a fmic?

[oldeskewltoy]

I've got a friend using a "machined" piece of Poplar (yes WOOD) that has been fully sealed as a spacer between the throttles and the head. It keeps intake temps substantially lower. In his case the adapter is for n/a use.


My sedan is my daily, mods I've done so far on my sedan are simple for now... +1 on the wheels and tires(going from 13" steel wheels to 14" allows, with 185/60/14 Bridgestones, and Bilsteins all around


Concerning on going mods....

Here is the 20V short block(silvertop)....




A recent acquisitions.... 4AGZE slugs (8.9 to 1)...





a 2nd recent acquisitions - a 4AGZE 8.5# flywheel




My intention is to keep the F head, and eventually bolt an SC12 to the side. Here is why I think I can do this....

below is a head and piston comparison



on the left is 4AGZE, on the right is 4AFE. I believe I can swap the 4AGZE pistons under the 4AFE head and have a similar compression ratio as I would with the 4AF pistons. I've yet to get a volume measurement from a "F" head so I don't yet KNOW it'll be similar... but my hunch is I'm going to be close enough to the original compression ratio(or maybe a touch higher??) to have it work as a "super duty" 4AFE bottom end, until I can engineer, and afford the SC12 swap


Why do this to an All-Trac? the AE9 sean/wagon body is not, I repeat, NOT very aero. In fact brick and AE9 sedan/wagon aero could be used synonymously. With that said, the challenge therefore is to boost low end torque... and the best way I know of is a supercharger. The SC12 is well matched for the 4AFE, in fact it is far better matched to a 4AFE then a 4AGE (SC12 is kinda limited in rpm peak, as is the 4AF)

My eventual goal - 120hp, 120#/ft

[TERRA Operative]

Was that jeep charged with a fmic?

Nah, this one was N/A with a 4 litre AMC inline six, stroked to 4.8 litre, and about $10k spent on the engine.

The new build is getting a Gen3 LS2.

[PrettyCoolWagon]

I've got a friend using a "machined" piece of Poplar (yes WOOD) that has been fully sealed as a spacer between the throttles and the head. It keeps intake temps substantially lower. In his case the adapter is for n/a use.


My sedan is my daily, mods I've done so far on my sedan are simple for now... +1 on the wheels and tires(going from 13" steel wheels to 14" allows, with 185/60/14 Bridgestones, and Bilsteins all around


Concerning on going mods....

Here is the 20V short block(silvertop)....




A recent acquisitions.... 4AGZE slugs (8.9 to 1)...





a 2nd recent acquisitions - a 4AGZE 8.5# flywheel




My intention is to keep the F head, and eventually bolt an SC12 to the side. Here is why I think I can do this....

below is a head and piston comparison



on the left is 4AGZE, on the right is 4AFE. I believe I can swap the 4AGZE pistons under the 4AFE head and have a similar compression ratio as I would with the 4AF pistons. I've yet to get a volume measurement from a "F" head so I don't yet KNOW it'll be similar... but my hunch is I'm going to be close enough to the original compression ratio(or maybe a touch higher??) to have it work as a "super duty" 4AFE bottom end, until I can engineer, and afford the SC12 swap


Why do this to an All-Trac? the AE9 sean/wagon body is not, I repeat, NOT very aero. In fact brick and AE9 sedan/wagon aero could be used synonymously. With that said, the challenge therefore is to boost low end torque... and the best way I know of is a supercharger. The SC12 is well matched for the 4AFE, in fact it is far better matched to a 4AFE then a 4AGE (SC12 is kinda limited in rpm peak, as is the 4AF)

My eventual goal - 120hp, 120#/ft

As your signature says, Information is power learn the facts.
I think an s/c 12 is doable on the 4afe, but you'd have to regulate it all well & keep the boost mild..
Plus I believe your car has the 1st gen 4afe which isn't as suitable to boost aplications as the 2nd gen 4afe.

A lot of people will disagree with you & tell you you're crazy but the 2nd gen 4afe's are stronger than a lot have people have ever bothered to learn about.

Here... Check these out:

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=333885

http://www.86garage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1504

Good luck - keep taking pic's & maybe you'd like to start a build thread once you've got most of the project under way..

[PrettyCoolWagon]

Wont the 4AGZE be older than the AE95 car?
If it is, it wont be a legal conversion.

Just something for you to think about if the car being properly legal is important.

Can any Victorian based toy modders shed any more light on this?

[PrettyCoolWagon]

Nah, this one was N/A with a 4 litre AMC inline six, stroked to 4.8 litre, and about $10k spent on the engine.

The new build is getting a Gen3 LS2.

yeah... well then. like you say

"make sure your mods all work together. You'll be surprised how interrelated a lot of mods are"

You made some good points that I'll definitely consider but comparing a stroked n/a american 6 with a large intercooler on a 4agze is quite different.

I wonder what your jeep temps would be like if it was running an intercooler. Does anyone ever use intercoolers on n/a set ups??

Also interesting to hear oldskewl's comment about machining a spacer between the throttles and the head & keeping intake temps substantially lower.

I always thought a bolt on 'ceramic plate' of small stacks to sit between the head & the intake runners would help to stop direct heat transference going into the runners & warming the plenum. It'd probably be too brittle & crack from engine vibration..tho

[TERRA Operative]

Aerodynamics doesn't change depending on what engine you have in your enginebay....

Also, you are looking for stuff called phenolic resin for your intake to head spacer.

Also, if you need to ask if an N/A engine warrants an intercooler, you have a waaaay to go yet. Keep doing that research.

Also, I own superchaged AE101 Levins and have tuned a number of supercharged vehicles, so to say I know the supercharger/intercooler/etc system on the 4AGZE backwards is a slight understatement.
Trust me when I offer information, I'm not just some noob behind a keyboard.
(not entirely anyway).

[PrettyCoolWagon]

Cool boss (joke),

Def' AM a noob & I don't mind asking the noob questions ...I know IC's aren't standard on a N/A set up but it wouldn't hurt to cool down even ambient temp air particularly on hot days with worked engines ... just wondering if any one's ever tried it...

...that's me testing the edges of common practice to see who's tried something different with positive results..

You'll get used the questions - they built my neck top computer & programed it to 'verify' all incoming data hahaa !

I noticed you owned Levins (whilst verifying) ..so when's that website gonna get updated?

... couldn't help it .. included pics to consider windscreen aerodynamic comparisons..

P,S. "phenolic resin"
T-O!..you're a genius!...
I spoke to management, they said to definitely keep you on ... but no pay rise yet ...sorry

[TERRA Operative]

Keep the noob questions coming, it's the only way to learn, I'll play nice.

Yea, the website is coming. I just gotta kick my bro in the bum and get him back to the keyboard.......
Wait till you see the next engine build. a 2.2 litre stroked and supercharged monster, for a FWD car. fuuunnnn



An intercooler won't do anything on an N/A car apart from be a restriction to the intake. You can't cool ambient temperature air with ambient temperature air. There needs to be a temperature difference for heat transfer to occur.

Cold air induction, water injection, nitrous oxide, CO2 cooling systems, these all can be used to varying degrees of success though.


The only real difference is the higher static pressure at the base of the windscreen, you won't build as much due to the smoother slope, but there will still be a significant amount (Guess why they put the intake for your vents there??)


Oh, if you have any questions about the SC12/14 supercharger system, I'm your man.

[PrettyCoolWagon]

So your FWD gonna be one of those weird beasts w/ Huge ass tyres up front?? Just looks wrong maaan.

QUOTE "You can't cool ambient temperature air with ambient temperature air."

Doh! Did you hear that?? That's the sound of my hand smakin my forehead & my ego hitting the floor!
My bad - That makes perfect sense! public embarrassment - the shame of a noob

Cold air induction etc. Yes boss - back to the books & study more...

Pressure at base of windscreen. I'd say a few cars would have their intake vents there for that reason..

Re: sc 12/14 I'm not really sure what to ask.. I get the basic idea of how they work, but go ahead & just outline the basics of what you think is important for any s/c 12/14 owner to know..

...in the back of my mind I have started to considered s/c 14.
I just bought this on E-bay
Toyota 4agze 4agte HKS F-CON AW11 AE86
http://www.hksusa.com/products/?id=748&rsku=3754

s/c 14, + pulley kit, FMIC, porting & adjustable cam gears with the HKS piggy back kit would be the limits for me I think,

Really - heaps more power than what I outlined the purpose of the vehicle was for...

..& I've got no idea what an engineer would say...

I'd also like an answer to MWP's point about the engine being older than the car...

If he's right - I'll clean the engine up & sell it in place of a small port GZE with the ceramic piston heads...

For people who do it by the book, what do you generally do??
* Find all the regulations info you can - go ahead & build, then take it to engineer?
*Put your plans on paper - then take to an engineer?
* Just start building & go back & forth to engineer as questions arise?

Thanks for staying 'tuned'

[TERRA Operative]

Nah, my car will have 7" to 7.5" wide tyres (it'll be my daily), but they'll be Toyo R1R or the like, and be replaced often.......



A smallport is preferable, mainly because you get rid of the air flow meter (less restriction on the intake) a slightly higher compression ratio and slightly more boost.
However an aftermarket ECU or something is needed as many of these engines exhibit a power drop at about 5500RPM due to the knock sensor picking up harmonic noise from the supercharger and causing the ECU to pull timing. (I'll be using an Adaptronic on mine. Got it waiting on the shelf with a custom adapter harness).

As for pulleys, steer away from the pulley bros pulleys for now. They tend to slip at over 8PSI boost, which is fine on a commodore at 6PSI of boost as they were designed, but at 14PSI on a 4AGZE, they don't even get close (they slip at about 9PSI).
I'm working on fixing the problem, but for now the best bet is a Cusco crank pulley or the like, something with the rubber damping section.

Or you could go for an SC14, put bigport cams in (if you are using a smallport) and adjustable cam pulleys (I use HKS items), retard the exhaust by 2 degrees and advance the intake by the same. Your idle will be a bit lumpier, but say hello to 13 PSI or more on stock pulleys with an SC12.... (I've done it myself and hit 13PSI with an SC12. I currently run stock pulleys, an SC12, and a retarded exhaust cam and pull 11PSI)

Replacement of the stock intake manifold is a good idea (and what I'll be doing myself soon) as the stock one is absolute rubbish. Another good idea is to enlarge the pipe from the supercharger to the intercooler. I reckon about 2 1/4" would do nicely, and is another mod I'll be doing.

As for intercoolers, my preference is with water to air. It keeps the intake length short, and with a nice sized reservoir, will take a decent amount of heat before it heatsoaks. If you're moving slowly (as in 4WDing), it will provide better cooling than a front mount which will heatsoak much qoicker untill you get air moving over it again.
Plus, on the road you are only boosting for a few seconds at a time, so a front mount intercooler will never really act as a true heat exchanger. It will absorb the heat from the intake charge like a heatsink in your computer then radiate the heat slowly away. Not as efficient as if the car was on the track with an abundance of fast moving air.

Downside is the cost and complexity. But complexity = fun.


As for engineering, do your research for the rules in your state, then talk to an engineer to get pointed in the right direction. No point building your car only to find at the end that you can't even put it on the road.........


I gotta got to bed. I'll disgorge more random info later.

[dangdang]

4a sexpert right there...

Listen up Nuff Nuff

[PrettyCoolWagon]

heheheah Howdy dangdang - good to see you here! that "Nuff Nuff" was a one time offer mate don't wear it out.

T-O - snds like U got $ 2 burn 4 tyres


I think my excitement peaked after 18months of research & I bought the next 4agze that came along.

Might go back to drawing board & get a smallport but 1st I might as well put together a folder of my mod's & go see a few local engineers - see if they sing the same song

Re: getting rid of the air flow meter..,
..the HKS kit I just purchased comes with it's own air pressure sensor, so I'm not sure if I could do away with the AFM & just tune using the kit. I think it's more of a piggy back system that uses both the OEM ECU & it's own sensors.


For pulleys I had my eye on a full set of Non-Stop-Tuning pulleys.

You gotta remember I'm not building a race car here so.. I don't really wanna change the cams - I'm open to using a sc14.. that's a good common sense way of boosting more without thrashing a sc12 to the max.
Definitely putting adjustables on & don't care about rough idle, if it means I get more top end power when the wagons doing 100-110kph up hill fully loaded with gear & passengers.

Yeah stock intakes gotta go, it's a bizarre shape. I've got the skills to custom fab an intake but don't have the workshop so I've bought a big port intake minus the TVIS plate.
Pipes will be as big as practicable - I'll keep 2 1/4" in mind.. but I'm guessing there's not much point if things like throttle bodies & IC in/out aren't of a similar size as well.
I'm pretty sure the throttle body attached to the sc is 55mm but I've got a spare 60mm = the 2 1/4 you're talkin about..

U make sense but I'm sticking with a standard IC - just to keep it simple & cost effective.
It'll be as big as possible to compensate for flow & exchange issues that you outlined.

Remember, I'm upgrading from the factory 4afe, so I'm gonna be pretty happy with my power gains.

Persisting with a sc/14, adjustable cam pulleys, HKS plug in-piggy back etc. will be challenging enough for a first timer like me.