LPG Explained... An Intro to LPG

[stradlater]

No dual fuel crap, that's the idea... :-)

[-=DV=-]

newcastle here i come

thankgod someones doing it....ive been looking into this for ages....what EMS do they use and up to how much HP in what applications as far as performance have they done so far?

*looks at watch*

i'll be a while tho

i havnt had much of a chance to talk in detail about it but i know they have done a forrester xt with great results, and i think he mentioned an 80kw increase on an xr6 turbo just from switching to lpg injection. the down side is they dont have a 4wd dyno so our cars would have to be road tuned

give them a call and have a chat if your inerested, tony should be able to give u all the info u need

[-=DV=-]

02 49566041 btw sorry mate

[myne]

LPG is starting to sound more and more similar to diesel, not petrol.

Slower buring
leaner is cooler
loves higher compression
resists detonation

[Beej GrpA]

LPG is starting to sound more and more similar to diesel, not petrol.

Slower buring
leaner is cooler
loves higher compression
resists detonation

and the major difference is diesel is a filthy fuel, where as LPG is extremely clean

[oldcorollas]

actually.. diesel loves detonation.. relies on it to work which is why they have limited rev range, since your advance is effectively fixed due to geometric/mechanical factors

gas is good. dammit.....

wonder if the idea of using convertor to cool a WTA interwarmer would work has ben discussed a fair but , but never got around to working out the sums
"sorry occifer, i had to stick the boot in... my system was starting to freeze "

[hemi twofifteen turbo]

i worked it out once, and i think it drop temp intake air temp by 4 deg C.
cause air in = fuel in so the math wasn't too bad.
i've got all the calcs in notepad but i did it a whle ago and have to find it

[oldcorollas]

for the introduction of LPG into the air stream? or for the expansion of liquid to gas in the convertor, which is usually heated by the engines coolant (iirc )

[3T-GTE]

Hi Strad,

Thought it was time I came out from the garage & made a post...

+ve rep for helping to dispel a few LPG myths.

I have also been running a GasResearch / B2 setup on my 3T-GTE since 1999. Given I was going about it all properly, with an engineer certificate, etc... It was the easiest/only way for me to get it road legal for emissions too.

Currently a dedicated track car with standard internals a few mods (FMIC, CT-26, etc) I've been able to push 147rwkw out of it on LPG.
While it makes good power, throttle response leaves a lot to be desired... especially given it is a track car.

The limitation I've found (along with getting Joel at GRA to see if he could do anything more), after mucking around with various jetting & converter adjustments, is that we can't get a tune that gives enough fuel up top, without running extremely rich down low.
I guess for drag (WOT) use, this isn't as much of an issue. The other downside of my setup is the additional weight of the 80 useable litter tank.

It’s not all bad news though... the larger GRA throttle body certainly helps, along with the other benefits that Strad has already mentioned.

I think direct (i.e. Liquid) gas injection is the way to go... you also get the added cooling effect, which can only be a good thing?
Then again, I'm also in 2 minds at the moment, thinking that with all mucking around to get Liquid Gas Injection working properly (with a heap of stuffing around + injectors that can accurately control the amount of gas) - It may be much easier to just run hi-octane fuel? - I’m interested to know people's thoughts on that?

I know that Michael (mrshin) has been experimenting with LPG injection for some time now... I'm still very keen to see something running there shinny!

Cheers,
3T-GTE

[Beej GrpA]

Hi Strad,

Thought it was time I came out from the garage & made a post...

+ve rep for helping to dispel a few LPG myths.

I have also been running a GasResearch / B2 setup on my 3T-GTE since 1999. Given I was going about it all properly, with an engineer certificate, etc... It was the easiest/only way for me to get it road legal for emissions too.

big benefit not being subject to emissions i bet

The limitation I've found (along with getting Joel at GRA to see if he could do anything more), after mucking around with various jetting & converter adjustments, is that we can't get a tune that gives enough fuel up top, without running extremely rich down low.
I guess for drag (WOT) use, this isn't as much of an issue. The other downside of my setup is the additional weight of the 80 useable litter tank.

heavy tank would be slightly beneficial to me.....fix my 60:40 front rear weight ratio
i assume ur useing a mixer carby system??? or is it a simplistic Gas injected EFI?
surely if it were mapped u wouldn't hav said issue

I think direct (i.e. Liquid) gas injection is the way to go... you also get the added cooling effect, which can only be a good thing?

is that really a question ?

Then again, I'm also in 2 minds at the moment, thinking that with all mucking around to get Liquid Gas Injection working properly (with a heap of stuffing around + injectors that can accurately control the amount of gas) - It may be much easier to just run hi-octane fuel? - I’m interested to know people's thoughts on that?

I know that Michael (mrshin) has been experimenting with LPG injection for some time now... I'm still very keen to see something running there shinny!

Cheers,
3T-GTE

the main reasons i think that going to the length of LPG is worth it are simply the cleanliness, and the fact that a certified LPG conversion legally allows u to stay roadworthy with aftermarket modifications.....IE they're about to start setting up random CAR TESTING (not breath testing, car testing) stations to start defecting un-roadworthy and modified vehicles (in SA).......any modifcation, even with an engineers certificate, is defectable, but with an LPG system, its obvious that the system HAS to be modified, and is subject to different laws. so really here in "the defect state", it has that as one advantage. its kind of like screaming "DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY!!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!"

another advantage that i seriously consider is worth the effort, high compression + boost = response, but more importantly specifically for myself is the cleanliness.....i want to run a Garret Multivane VNT turbo, on which ive heard in petrol engines, the vanes get buggered by carbon buildup, and with hi octane fuel only being heavier, would surely make them dirtier. LPG on the other hand would not have this issue.

in comparison to high octane fuel......well u cant buy 109octane petroleum gasoline at the pump.....we dont even get the 100 here in adelaide some of u eastyern state boys get. however gas is a "industry regulated minimum" (although certain companies *cough* BP *cough* have been getting away with Butane mixes higher than 15% or recent), so u always know ur getting nice hi octane....second point would be, u drive ANYWHERE, and i mean ANYWHERE, u can get LPG. even out in woop woop....middle of the bloody country, they have it, its like petrol.......tell me if u can find 100 or 98 octane fuel everywhere in australia. oh, and have u thought about the associated cost of high octane fuel? u want a similar octane fuel in petroleum gasoline u need avgas.......hmmmmm

nice link for u guys http://www.lpgli.com/execsumm.html


and yes, go shinny, im keen and waiting to see some things too

[Norbie]

Who sells 109RON LPG?

[Beej GrpA]

Who sells 109RON LPG?

ur local petrol station. chek link to "liquid inject" in the last post, then chek http://www.adelaidereview.com.au/_ar..._from=&ucat=2&

"One alternative for owners of cars running on leaded petrol is to convert the engine to LPG – liquid petroleum gas. This can cost from $1500 to $3000 and while LPG is rated at 110 RON, the fuel economy of the average six-cylinder vehicle can drop by 15 per cent. You will still need to re-seat the valves and use upper-cylinder lubricant in a cast iron head engine."

fairly reputable source, most locale specific i could find. im told in europe the RON is higher due to the fact that they have 100% propane and no butane mixed in

althought the industry standard is only Approx 102RON, (90.5MON as outlined here http://www.ag.gov.au/portal/govgazonline.nsf/0/0DB540E565153748CA256E05001D2445/$file/S503.pdf) if u talk to retailers like caltex (who actually produce their own at Lytton in Queensland and Kurnell in New South Wales), they'll tell u their product is practically guaranteed at 113......110/109 seems to be the accepted standard

irregardless, the other benefits even at only 102 make it a greater performance than a petrol at the same RON

EDIT : speeling

[Norbie]

That's all well and good, but fuel distributors list the specifications of their fuels, including LPG. Last I checked most of the major ones were 98RON with a few slightly higher. None were anywhere near 109. If you can provide references of actual fuel specs from actual fuel distributors I'd be most interested!

[Beej GrpA]

That's all well and good, but fuel distributors list the specifications of their fuels, including LPG.

personally i couldnt find any specifications direct from distributors/prodcuers on the specifics of their LPG. Shell, Mobil, BP or Caltex.

Last I checked most of the major ones were 98RON with a few slightly higher. None were anywhere near 109. If you can provide references of actual fuel specs from actual fuel distributors I'd be most interested!

98??? thats odd....the industry standard as dictated by the governing body is 102RON for LPG as listed here, not 98

http://www.ag.gov.au/portal/govgazonline.nsf/0/0DB540E565153748CA256E05001D2445/$file/S503.pdf

unlikely that a fuel distributor will list their fuel as higher RON simply for legality and accoutnability reasons. in speaking with them all they will tell me is that they obide by never letting it go below the 102 standard, but also say "u will most likely find it to be around the 110 figure".
albeit, once again as i've previously shown,

example here http://www.lpgli.com/execsumm.html

considering they won the propane world challenge and they have a few worldwide patents on technology they've developed specifically for liquid LPG EFI (some of which is being used on new gas only falcons in the future), i'll believe their experience and expertise, wen they and other such shops quote a higher octane rating for LPG as being 109.

apparently its simply because a number of manufacturers supply a product that is higher than the industry standard, although in talking to a number of mechanics i hav also been told that BP supply a product that is below the industry standard, having a higher percentage of butane.

its quite simple, if a physics professor taught u a concept, and he had experience in that field for years, chances are ud believe him rather than question (PS this scenario is not refering to myself). as such in this scenario, i take the companies, and a number of other LPG conversion shops werd for it, as having questioned them as to why they quote a number of 109/110 wen the industry standard is only 102, they simply tell me its because "most manufacturers do so to create a margin of safety so that they can be sure they are always above 102 so they dont get caught out". which seems logical

however accepting that is ur choice, although im still confused as to where u came up with the figure of 98

[oldcorollas]

this is interesting, regarding butane content and octane..
http://www.deh.gov.au/atmosphere/fue...ubs/paper5.pdf

and some interesting stuff in fuel tax submissions..
http://fueltaxinquiry.treasury.gov.a.../ALPGA_224.asp


is liquid LPG viable yet? how do they compenate for varying tank pressures and temperature?
i'd like to start with vapour injection, and then later move to liquid if it becomes (more)easily available...ie, you can buy the parts..