2TG+EFI+turbo?

[ZeN]

Hi all,

My name is Jonathan and I'm from France. I'm planning to rebuilt a 2TG and after having read a lot on US and Aus forums, i like the idea of turboing it but... on a budget.

The main problem is that here in France we have no 2TGEU, no 3T, no 1G, no 1J...so nothing that i could source there for an upgrade or parts for a low cost improvement.
So I finally get some little bits from Japan like 2TGEU EFI complete intake with some loom...3TGTEU exhaust mani with CT20, sandwitch plate to add an oil cooling radiat and i proly need to source some parts more like intercooler/pluming, megasquirt, efi fuel system...

First question: How much power would stock 2TG internals would take?
If 2TG internals are too weak ( remember i don't want to get 200hp, just turbo low boost and some extras hp for a low budget ), what could i do to improve them?
I know ARP rod bolts and 3TC/G/TE pistons but remember i have a 2TG crank, not 3T...and machining for valve reliefs costs $$$...
Also, what about replacing cams? If i need it, what specs should i try to source?

Second question: Should i reduce comp for low boost? I can source a 86mm/2mm metal gasket..but i don't know if it could do the job and if a 86 HG would be oK with stock 85 pistons...

3rd question: I think i would go EFI before trying to turbo it and before rebuild if i must go low comp...Should the 2TGEU ECU would be oK with 2TG? ( comp and hp is lower on GEU ) Maybe 4AGE ECU would be better if it can be adapt?

4th... : As you know, trying to source a complete 2TGEU system is really hard nowadays...so i bought some bits there, some other there.. but i don't know if i have all i need. Could you make a list of parts needed to turn 2TG to EFI? I think the only thing that is missing is the Oxy sensor on exhaust mani as i don't have 2TGEU mani ( such a heavy thing to ship... ), if i need it, what type of aftermarket OS should work with stock ECU?

What a long post! Sorry for it but so much questions in my head...

[oldcorollas]

Welcome to toymods!
i think you are our first france poster? (i was over there last week Les Emibiez was cold!)
sounds like you have a good plan in place.
not sure on internals.. one of the T guys will say/

probably don't need to reduce comp for low boost, as long as mixtures and timing is fine. 9:1 should be ok.
of course it also depends on what fuel you will use? (octane etc)
usualyl HG is slightly bigger than the cylinder, and 86 is only 0.5mm radius difference... 2mm thickness probabyl not needed.

fro ECU, i think you are better off starting with MS or MS2 (MS1 with MSnSE code, or MS2), but you will need the ignition control to provide spark retard. you can use commercial ECU's as well, but no point trying to adapt 2TG or 4AG ECU and then have to change when you go turbo anyway.

if you have manifold already, then just build with turbo.. if you are worried abotu tuning, just wire/fix the wastegate open so it doesn7t boost, and play with fuel and spark first, then let wastgate do it's thing and continue tweaking the tables.

with MS, all you need is coolant and air temp (almost any are ok), the MAP is inside the MS, you need manifold, injectors, fuel pressure regulator EFI fuel pump and EFI fuel filter (return line to tank as well), throttle body with variable TPS (not switch type)... and O2 sensor.
ignition.. you can use the stock dizzy with MS to provide controlled spark, or you can use stock dizzy with a different kind of pickup (crank, flywheel etc)...

O2 sensor can be any generic 1 to 4 wire jobby... the 3 and 4 wire ones are better because they are heated, and will warm up quicker. you can also sit them further away from the engine with no problems, which would be good with the turbo

[ZeN]

Merci!

Ok so for internals, i'd wait for the "T guys"

For ECU, i think that's the best choice but how to get 2TG MS tables to have something to begin with? Also, what type of MS will you recommand me for that use?

I don't know if i understood anything you said about the turbo wasgate but in other ways, you mean i can "disable" the turbo? That would be great as i could begin in "safer mode" and get the exhaust done...

As i read on it, the 2TGEU TPS is switch type isn't it? So what variable TPS could i easily adapt?
For the spark, the EDIS with crank flywheel seems easier to control once installed, if it can work on 2TG, i'll eventually try to source one...

Thanks for your help ^^

P.S: I don't know if i am the first France poster but proly the first 2TGTE plan in France...^^ Here old japanese cars are not very appreciated and tech/swap on them are pretty inexistant...i am a mad of 1rst gen celica, i have 2 TA22, 1 TA23, 2 TA28 and 2 RA28, most of them have to be restored but with time and love... You can have a look to the web of the "Furious Celica Team" site http://www.celica.fr and to my "garage" http://www.celica.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2412... Enjoy

[Hurricane]

T series running efi with the right tune will hold 8psi all day, and if you rebuild it then evern better, but so run 6-8psi and it will be fine, even on 6psi and a stuffed motor i have not killed one yet. it only when i can 18psi and up

as said before i would just go straight with running an aftermarket ecu over the stock one, it will be easyer and be able to be tuned right first up.

as for cams, the stock ones will work fine if there in good order, i think there is stock 2tg cams running more lift? that might be the go to keep things cheap?

might also be best to run some better spark with the use of a msd box and electronic ignition if it doesnt already have it?

let me know if you need some efi gear as ive got some bits and peaces around, as well as motors.

cheers, dan

[ZeN]

oKay

So go for an 8psi boost... How much hp could i get from it? Also, does the CT20 is oK for low boost or maybe i could source something better for what i am aiming?

What do you mean by "running an aftermarket ecu OVER the stock one", does a MS could 'learn' from the stock ECU or should i just replace it and try to go from nothing? Cause that is one of my questions, where to get some tables to start from?

Ignition system will be replaced of course, i don't think stock one is electronic but i have a 2T-B spare electronic dizzy, dunno if it's the same than 2T-G but i could try...

let me know if you need some efi gear as ive got some bits and peaces around, as well as motors.

Thx guy, i'll tell you if i need something Ho...I don't have 2TGEU thermostat housing... seems to be different...

[Hurricane]

will im buying a stock 3t with injectoin that has 115rwkw's on 10psi.

with ECU i would just run a megasquirt and wire it in, or buy a cable to sute, im not sure on what model of ecu to get but im sure there site will let you know.

with the 2t-b dizzy, it will bolt in, the 2tg one has a longer neck on it. will be best to get rid of the vacum advance as well, and some people weld the advance weight so that it cant have advance spikes and make the motor detonate.

not sure what a ct20 is like, i know they small though, could go for a ct26? but for 8psi i cant see why it woudlnt be good enough for a budget motor?

not sure if ive got the T-stat housing? ill look.


cheers, dan

[Chrisso]

with ECU i would just run a megasquirt and wire it in, or buy a cable to sute, im not sure on what model of ecu to get but im sure there site will let you know.

with the 2t-b dizzy, it will bolt in, the 2tg one has a longer neck on it. will be best to get rid of the vacum advance as well, and some people weld the advance weight so that it cant have advance spikes and make the motor detonate.

With an MS2, should be the same with MS1 MSnSE, it will take care of the advance so definitely get rid of the vaccum advance. Unless you can find a significantly cheaper MS1, the MS2 on a v.3 board is well priced and seems fine. (Well, I hope so 'cause that's what I'm using!)

Chris

[o_man_ra23]

OK, I am building something similar, I am using an 18R-GUE and putting on a CT26 turbo from a Gen2 3S-GTE. Your setup sounds fair and reasonable, and the CT20 will be well sized for the motor. It shouldn't have any troubles building up 8psi and will spool reasonably early too.

Can't say anything about the stock internals, though if they are similar to 18R-G strength, then I can't see you having a problem. I am aiming for about 200hp with my setup (probably flywheel hp)

Get the MS2 with a V3.0 mainboard, it's what I bought and has all the features you will ever need. To save yourself some money on tuning, best to get a wideband oxy sensor and a cheap fuel/air mixture guage. Pretty well all the bits you need can be had from www.diyautotune.com for a good price (this is where I bought my stuff from, best price and good postage). Just buy your air temp sensor from them too, get it with the bung and pigtail. For the water temp sensor, get something that will fit your thermostat housing and map the ECU to it.

Use the electronic dizzy, and setup the MS to directly run the coil. This means you don't need an ignition module, just an electronic capable coil and the dizzy. Lock the rotor (weld the counterweights), take out the vacuum advance, and lock the advance plate (weld again), let the Megasquirt do ALL your ignition functionality. It will then be a cam angle sensor without position indication.

As said, put it all together and just run it. Best to tune it before you rebuild though. To wire open the wastegate, there is a pressure controlled actuator on the side of the turbo, pushing on a lever. Take the little E clip off (store this somewhere, don't lose it like I did mine), move the actuator arm out of the way and hold it in place with some fencing wire, then pull the lever away from the actuator fully, and use some more fencing wire to hold this in place (wrap the wire around something solidly attached to the motor, like the exhaust... don't wrap it around something on the car body or xmember, or steering), this will allow the turbo to spin freely, and will bypass it, so it won't create boost. Remember you still need to hook up your oil and/or water lines to the turbo to keep it cool though.

You will also need bigger injectors. In Ebay america motors, look up "1G DSM Injector" and you will find Honda Talon injectors. These are the ones you want (440cc from a turbo motor, not the little non turbo ones). There is a bloke there that sells them fully reconditioned, with new seals and new injector plugs for a good price. Don't bother buying the resistor pack, the MS2 will directly run low impedance injectors. You will also need to look at an upgraded fuel system, so bigger fuel lines, surge tank, feeder pump and pressure pump.

Make a member's ride thread with the build, insert a link into your signature, and pop your head into the "Classic Celica Dedicated Thread" in the general car talk section, I (and several others) will follow your build and give you guidance as you require it.

Oh, and the one thing that I loved seeing the French do... headbutt the bloody Italians in the World Cup!! Good payback for their acting against Australia!!

[ZeN]

Thank you for your help guys!! I'll make a member's ride ASAP

For MS, i will buy the MS2 with PCB3 from diyautotune as soon as i have the cash. Another question is about the oil/coolant feed for the turbo, i've seen that on some blocks, we just have to tapper the hole like on the 3TG but as i have 2TG block, what do you recommend?
For fuel, could someone show me an easy pic ( with paintshop or something like ) of how to put all together an EFI fuel system? I never seen it and original is carb so fuel pump is mechanic and suck the fuel to send it to carb. Here you talk of surge tank, feeder pump and pressure pump, could you tell me how to put all this together and where ( engine bay, intank, in the boot? ) ?

( LoL for the Zidane headbutt , really nice headbutt of course but not approved, violence is not cooL, even if he had all the reason to do it... Materazzi on the floor haha a great moment ^^, the first time he was on the floor for something REAL.. )

[o_man_ra23]

Have a search around, there have been numerous diagrams made which would be better than anything I could draw up quickly. There are also many discussions about that.

EDIT:
This thread is a good start, much discussion and exactly relevant to what you are looking for.

http://www.toymods.net/forums/showth...t=Fuel+Diagram

[Born-Enthusiast]

hey mate how are you. Sounds great what your planning to do and I'm quite impressed with your collection of first gen celica's very nice work. Ok now Here are a few things that might dent your bubble. The 3TG exhaust manifold is actually different to the 2TG so unfortunately that won't bolt on to the engine you are trying to build. however the 2TG did come out here as a turbo engine so not all is lost. Personally if i was you I would start by building your engine as a low compression 2TG and then strapping on the turbo at a later date. Providing your internals are done properly the first build bolting on the turbo will be fine.

I'm not an expert on turbo's I prefer NA applications but you should have no problems with what your proposing try asking around a bit more tho just to be sure.

hope this helps
Nathan

[o_man_ra23]

Nathan... a few points I would like to clarify with you.

When did the 2T-G get a turbo in aus??

The low compression pistons you speak of are 2T-GUE. With the sort of boost our baguette'd friend is talking of, these will indeed be a good compression ratio. If you lower it further, you will reduce the low end torque of the motor with no top end gain, so effectively it will just be a dog to drive.

Forged crank?? I thought they were just well cast and made from quality metal. They will handle quite a decent amount of power though.

As for beefing up internals, the only item I can suggest replacing would be the conrod cap bolts. ARP make a nice set, and these can be got from various suppliers. Sleeka Spares in South Australia do them for $85 a set, and he lists them on E-bay Australia under the name Dave7MGTE.

As for the 3T-GTEU exhaust manifold fitment, ZEN, could you please put your manifold on the head and see if it fits?? And take a photo to show whether or not it fits, and if it doesn't, point out where the differences are please.

Edit:

A 3TGTE exhaust manifold and turbo will bolt up to your 2TG head.

Although Rod and I have disagreements with many things, one thing I can say for sure is that he knows his 2T-G's.

[Hurricane]

a 3t does have a forged crank stock, and will take 20+psi with out breacking.

3tgte turbo exhuast manifold will bolt onto a 2t/3t 2tg head with out mods, seen it on my motor and a mates 2tg.

as for a low comp pistion, run 9 to 1 comp if only runing under 10psi, other wise yes it will loose the bottom end power. with a cooler and right tune it will be fine.

and the rod bolts would be good, but ive never used them and never had trouble. if you are running low boost and not reving more than stock then it should be fine, but there cheap, but also remember that the rods will have to come out to swap them.

cheers, dan

[o_man_ra23]

Hurricane... read the first post, he has a 2TG crank.

Thanks for confirming the manifold, thought they were the same.

First post also indicates a CT20. Doubt if it will make more than 10psi boost at all, so 9:1 should be fine if the tune is good and he has an intercooker.

If your pulling the motor apart, a set of rod bolts is cheap insurance. Remember the original ones came from a 7000+rpm motor that is possibly over 35 years old.

[Born-Enthusiast]

wow I really muffed up.
sorry for the mislead about the crank I was thinking of the 3t's. I'm not to sure but you may be correct with the 2t being cast just good quality. still the 2TG crank should do the trick still, As for the 2tg being turbo again I was confused with the 3tg I wrote the post to early in the morning.

The 2TGEU pistons are the ones I was talking about they are a lower compression piston compared to the other pistons used.
The 3tg manifolds I was told were different as I was looking into using one when I was planning my engine build with the 2tg/3t hybrid over the 3TGTE. Thats ok you learn something every day. I know the 3t single cam manifold is interchangeable but was informed that the 3TGTE was different. I edited my other post accordingly thanks for the heads up.
late nights and early mornings play with the brain.