GT-Four ST185 3SGTE Stroker Upgrade

[=dam0=]

Jorrs, the ST185 is the GT-Four Celica (3SGTE), the ST182 is the SX Celica (3SGE)

[The Real Roadrunner]

Jorrs, the ST185 is the GT-Four Celica (3SGTE), the ST182 is the SX Celica (3SGE)

i think youll find hes having a dig at abently's random whoring.

cheers
linden

[abently]

Yes, I know my Toyotas like the back of my hand.

If this is a vehicle your going to keep for ever, go the stroker. If it's not, then just go Higher static Compression.

[Moppitt]

So my understanding of this discussion is that the Stroker option isn't really gonna do too much for the money spent? A bit more torque, but nothing substantial. So if strokers don't do that much, why do it at all? I heard that Toyota dropped a stroked 3SGTE into a Supra for the LeManns and it did quite well, as the engine was lighter than the standard TT V6.

IIRC Toyota ran some form of 3s in the GT500 series in japan in the supra because they could get the regulated max power from that engine so didnt need the larger, ?heavier 2JZ. That also allowed them to position the engine for better weight distribution. Im not sure about the Lemanns series though but that could be indicative of the reasoning.

Id guess they would run a stroker for torque as in that kind of racing 1% is worth getting and paying a lot for.. just a guess though..

[oldcorollas]

Yes, I know my Toyotas like the back of my hand.
If this is a vehicle your going to keep for ever, go the stroker. If it's not, then just go Higher static Compression.

No, SW20 so only 2WD.... sorry I forgot this was a GT-Four not a regular st185.

err... SW20 is MR2... ST185 IS a GT4....

so you know what like what?

[EldarO]

So my understanding of this discussion is that the Stroker option isn't really gonna do too much for the money spent? A bit more torque, but nothing substantial. So if strokers don't do that much, why do it at all? I heard that Toyota dropped a stroked 3SGTE into a Supra for the LeManns and it did quite well, as the engine was lighter than the standard TT V6.

standard TT V6?

where can i get me one?

Elmo.

[Howieau]

As far as I know;
ST185 - 3SGTE
ST184 - 5SFE
ST165 - 3SGTE
ST162 - 3SGE
----

I don't know that much in regards to the advantages/disadvantages of the 2.2L 3sgte stroker but always thought that that was just for the more hardcore modders who were trying to milk every little HP from the 3s that they could to make big numbers for a dyno queen or drag car for example. I would've thought that with the work you have planned, if it was applied to the standard 2L 3sgte, it would still definately be a ball tearer, and as you said you just enjoy driving so I'm sure you'd have great fun in it! If you can hold onto it haha.

You could also get onto the twobrutal or MR2OC (uk or us) forums and ask about the differences from the 2L to 2.2L. Although theyre used in a RWD application on the MR2, the engines torque and power deliver in 2.2L should be the same, it's just that they'll get more of it to the wheels and probably lose traction where as you'll lose some power over the AWD drivetrain and probably not lose traction.

Have a look into the money side of things too, quote them how much it would cost for the same engine modifications on the 2L bottom end. Quote around Australia chasing work/parts prices and see if you can come up with anything cheaper, you could probably save yourself a significant amount. I'd assume posting a block from the states to here wouldn't be too cheap either. But if money isn't a concern then it's really up to you. With those mods you have planned, either a 2L or 2.2L - they're both gonna be damn fast, but obviously the 2.2L will just have that little bit extra potential in it - it's just whether you want to pay the extra dough for it.

[=dam0=]

Thanks for the input guys, very much appreciated. Probably won't go the stroker then at the moment, I'll build the rest up, and stroke when it's reached it's max potential, squeeze the last bit of power out of her at the end.

Can anyone recommend any reputable builders in WA (or anywhere else in Australia)

D

[BeRad]

I didnt read the whole thread but a gt30r with .63 rear on my internally stock 3sgte came onto 1psi at like 2800-3000rpm, and 14psi at 4000-4200, once its on boost i didnt get any lag between gears so its fine, but possibly not what your looking for..

[Joshstix]

If you're going to rebuild the engine then definately stroke it now. There is no point building the engine now then later having to redo it all again to stroke it.

[=dam0=]

Does the Head need to be matched to suit the cylinder and piston sizes in the block?

What I mean is, if I do everything on my list except the stroking of the block, including getting the Stage III Head, is it going to run properly, or will there be compression issues? Or are the Head specs I've listed before, setup for a Stroked 3SGTE only?

If I don't stroke it immediately, I'd want to at least get everything else done and ready for it to be done later on, but as you said Joshstix, I don't wanna be replacing bits that were already replaced in the original buildup.

How many of these upgrade parts would be could be kept on the engine in the event I were to stroke it at a later date? I'm assuming most of them would suit either application. Obviously the block would need to be bored, the cylinders resized and the rods and crank changed over in either case, but for the rest??? If it's just a case of having a stroker kit installed (and the block bored out) after everything else is done, then that might just be the way to go.

D

[Joshstix]

It's not the parts that make it prohibitive it's the amount of work involved in doing it. You're looking at another engine R&R plus a full gasket kit and all the machining a second time around. Then of course the stroker crank and relevant pistons.

You can definately do a build up for a good 86mm stroke setup then replace the crank and pistons with correct stroker setup and it should work fine. But that is still a full engine rebuild.

[=dam0=]

cheers Joshstix, thanks for your input on this. Planning the build is surely the biggest part of any build, to ensure it gets done right the first time.

And thanks too to everyone who's contributed to this thread, Toymods is definately a great resource to us drivers still learning about engines and stuff.

Cheers
=dam0=

[Howieau]

I believe those head specs will run on a stroked or non-stroked 3sgte.

The factors that go into reaching a compression ratio are;
-Crank (In this case 2L or 2.2L)
-Rod Length
-Top of piston capacity
-Cylinder bore
-Deck clearance (from top of piston to top of block without the head on)
-Head gasket bore and thickness
-Combustion chamber capacity in the head

If you're thinking of purchasing a non-stroked engine from the same bloke who gave you the quote for the stroked engine, he'll take all of these things into account when setting up the engine for your desired compression ratio (9:1 if I remember correctly). They simply do some mathematical formulas to see what measurements are needed to reach that compression ratio, then go about getting the right parts, and doing machine work so the end result matches the CR you want.

Your crank is the main part in your quote that will determine whether your engine is 2L or 2.2L. If you started out with a 2L and then wanted to stroke it, you'd only need to remove the 3SGTE crank, and replace it with a stroker prepared 5S crank (by prepared I mean have the 5S journals machined to fit the 3SGTE rods). But once you do this your compression ratio will change, I'm pretty sure your comp ratio will be lowered if you kept all of your parts and just replaced the crank, and then whoever is doing the change will need to do some formulas again to find out what parts/machining is needed to meet 9:1 with the new crank. I think your pistons are all that may need to be changed, and/or possibly the head gasket thickness. Keeping that in mind, in reference to the crank the only thing you'd really need to replace is, from what I have read, the rear main seal (which is a seal that goes at the rear of the engine over the crank) to a 5S rear main seal, and also 5S flywheel bolts will be needed because the flywheel bolts to the end of the crank and the flywheel bolt thread on the 5S is different to that of the 3SGTE. I wouldn't recommend modifying those 5S flywheel bolt threads either to fit the 3SGTE ARP flywheel bolts because it'll weaken the crank (as you'll need to make the threads bigger - ie. drill them out). Just in case that thought ever comes across your mind haha.

As you can see it's really probably not worth it haha. Joshstix is definately right in that if you're going to stroke it do it first thing - but I still think that the 2L version is going to be ballistic, and you'll be plenty satisfied. You can get more torque down low too with your 9:1 CR setup. If the 2.2L only costs a little bit more, than go for it, but if it's a significant amount more expensive I really don't think it'll be worth it. Reading through this thread on an MR2 forum where the 2.2L stroker has been done by many of the users, and someone has stated; "Do take note tho, that altho its a 2.2 stroker kit.. it the final displacement will not be spot on 2.2L as not even the 5sfe engine as a whole is a true 2.2L. if you combine 86.5mm custom pistons with the 5sfe crank (91mm stroke) you will get a displacement of 2.139L". Research to check the credibility of that statement though.

All the best!

[=dam0=]

Excellent, cheers Howieau. That filled in a lot of spaces

Obviously it's not all gonna happen at once, but the plan is there now, and I've got a pretty good idea of how it's all gonna work, and how to go about getting it done

Turbo first though (coz it's stuffed) but the rest should come together in a year or so, so I'll keep posting as it all starts happening.

Cheers
=dam0=