Too Many Rules?

[Kirsty2520]

I still think it comes down to I will never matter what the board do to the forums there will ALWAYS be somone not happy.

If the rules are removed then there will be people that don't like the wookies that will post dribble.
if they stay as they are then people think htat their are to many rules....
I say get over it.... it is how it is so deal with it!

[IN 05 NT]

personally i think its a topic that had to be raised,

ive received quite a few rep points for bringing up the topic,

so as i now know its a topic that needed to be discussed, and hopefully will resolve quite a few issues with club/forum members,

i think its clear though......its become to strict...and the rules should be backed down just a touch...or just not so strongly adhered too,

we will always get the dickheads that just want to cause trouble.....you cant stop them!....

but that should not reflect on the rest of the club/forum and cause so much pain in the arse....theres so many people on here that do the right thing or make a stupid mistake and are shut down hard!!!..........

kinda like the whole terrorist thing...dont let them beat us......but dont let them win by putting so much on the rest of us!

cheers, blake

[Draven]

I would say more to the point, people who are happy with the rules have not neg repped you for creating this thread. You might not be happy with how that turned out.

I'm with deviant and kirsty here.. the non-car discussion should stay - useful and interesting things do get posted there (and equally, not useful, random internet links should be locked, deleted, and neg repped).

And no matter what, people will complain about the level of policing of anything, from state to forums. By all means voice your concerns to the board, but I have a feeling if it is brough up at the monthly meeting, even if votes are allowed by proxy, that the majority of members will be happy enough with how things are

[IN 05 NT]

i meant to say i have received 6+ rep for bringing up the discussion.....only 2-rep....

seems to me its a topic that some people have been holding back on, or not the confronting type (me either....)....

i have made my point clear,

cheers, blake

[DQIKST]

Not taking sides here guys and i havent completly read this thread but if this a technical forum and only a technical forum why do we have the general car talk section, non car discusion etc etc...,

surly for the benifits of the members because not every member is technically minded, but some people who are financial members still like to let their voices heard and say things in other sections of the club,

e.g

in the general car talk section i saw a thread about a member wanting to buy a motorbike surly blake could have put his 2 cents in because he owns a bike, i dont know if old corollas or river could do the same,

but then again OC and river have been around the forums and toyotas/cars alot longer than some of us in the club, they have seen similar questions being asked time and time again so they are sick of stupid question that why they like the rules,

RE
DQIKST

[XR Pilot]

Just felt like I wanted to have say on this. I'm a fairly new member to Toymods, and thought an "outsider's" point of view might be useful. I'm starting to get turned off from visiting the forums now, mainly because everynown and then I like to read the Non-car discussion for something different, but every thread I open cause I think this might be interesting always has about 3-4 people after the original poster saying this thread should not be here, stick to other forums, waste of bandwidth etc. I'm starting to not feel like posting much anymore, and I've just been sticking to the ST162 thread. I agree with IN 05 NT's point of view on this topic. But as you guys say, this forum is for its members, and is a tech forum. My opinion is how is the club going to grow, if its all about the tech? Most "newbies" to the car scene probably feel like they're over there head if tech was the only thing to this forum, and probably like to use the other more light-hearted (for want of better words) section of the forum to get a feel for this place first up. If all the threads are getting locked/deleted though all the time new people are going to be discouraged from posting at all.

My other opinion is too, is this is only a tech forum, why do you guys even have a non-car discussion? I can't see why you can't just delete it, I have read the opinion that it stops the "crap" overflowing into the other sections, but if sick of the crap posted in non-car discussion why not just delete that section, seems like your not going to be happy either way no matter where the crap is posted, threads are going to be deleted anyway.

The other issue I can see becoming a problem lately is people bitching about the rep system. Seems like it is being abused lately, but I don't really see the use of it, I can make up my own mind about if what someone posts is crap or not.

Thats my 2 cents, interested to here what other people's point of view is on what I have put forward.

[oldcorollas]

i think its clear though......its become to strict...and the rules should be backed down just a touch...or just not so strongly adhered too,

we will always get the dickheads that just want to cause trouble.....you cant stop them!....

but that should not reflect on the rest of the club/forum and cause so much pain in the arse....

you can stop dickheads. that is the point. they post like idiots, they get repped down. they get repped down enough, it comes to the attention of board and then they are banned. OR, they realise they were being stupid and post sensibly. either way is a win win situation

to have rules, and then not strictly adhere to them, as just as bad as having no rules in the first place. the point of rules is to draw a firm line in the sand as to what is acceptable.
for non-car discussion, i suggest an additional rule clarification that:
any thread NOT resulting in discussion be locked.

the rules to stop people posting crap are only a pain in the arse to people posting the crap in the first place, which is EXACTLY what the rules are trying to achieve.

toymods is not a chat club. if you want to chat, hook up with people on toymods and then take it to PM or MSN or other messenger thingy.. OR go to club meets and chat there.

toymods is a technical resource, and if your days only excitement/entertainment is to look at the crap threads on toymods, then perhaps there is something socially wrong with you (general you..). the internet is full of crap. as Ed said, it does not need to be relinked/repeated/rehosted here.

[XR Pilot]

for non-car discussion, i suggest an additional rule clarification that:
any thread NOT resulting in discussion be locked.

Define how long a thread should be left to generate discussion before it is locked. Also, define WHAT sort of discussion a thread needs to generate to be worthy of not being locked. This is a big problem at the moment, as it seems like rules like these have been implemented, but no ground rules have been set, and it is then up to the moderator's discression, which can vary down to things as petty as there mood or if they are biased against the topic, and because the rules aren't well defined enough that is when people get upset when threads are locked/deleted etc.

Rules proposed like the above are too ambiguous in my opinion.

[oldcorollas]

you have definitely touched on the main issues here

I'm starting to get turned off from visiting the forums now, mainly because everynown and then I like to read the Non-car discussion for something different, but every thread I open cause I think this might be interesting always has about 3-4 people after the original poster saying this thread should not be here, stick to other forums, waste of bandwidth etc. I'm starting to not feel like posting much anymore, and I've just been sticking to the ST162 thread.

so it is working then
the 162 thread is certainly one of the most chatty dedicated threads, and whilst it has it's technical content, it has a higher percentage of random chatter and crap than any other dedicated thread on toymods... which is one reason why deletion of the dedicated threads was considered.

Most "newbies" to the car scene probably feel like they're over there head if tech was the only thing to this forum, and probably like to use the other more light-hearted (for want of better words) section of the forum to get a feel for this place first up. If all the threads are getting locked/deleted though all the time new people are going to be discouraged from posting at all.

so it is working then
toymods is not a resource for absolute newbies. there are plenty of other places to learn abotu cars.. and just because you are a noob, doesn't mean you have to post. you are free to read and learn without posting crap people can get a feel of the place by READING and NOT POSTING. when i join a new forum, i read extensively to get a feel of the place and try and learn abotu stuff before i ask, and ALWAYS search before posting. (eg, when i joined the megasquirt yahoo list, i read back thru 15-20,000 messages.. no joke)
the point is to discourage people from postiong crap. some noobs to the forums understand and ask sensible questions from the very beginning. some never do

My other opinion is too, is this is only a tech forum, why do you guys even have a non-car discussion? I can't see why you can't just delete it, I have read the opinion that it stops the "crap" overflowing into the other sections, but if sick of the crap posted in non-car discussion why not just delete that section, seems like your not going to be happy either way no matter where the crap is posted, threads are going to be deleted anyway.

The other issue I can see becoming a problem lately is people bitching about the rep system. Seems like it is being abused lately, but I don't really see the use of it, I can make up my own mind about if what someone posts is crap or not.

thats kind of the point of contention. why do we have non-car? and you have touched on the main point there....
let me rephrase and repeat
TOYMODS will not be happy when crap is posted anywhere and it WILL be deleted

some people abuse the rep system. that is an issue, but as mentioned recently, it will be overhauled soon. the main reason i see for having the rep system is to discourage people from posting crap when they first join the forum, and to prevent people from joining just to sell stuff. in that regard it is working.
as said before many times, for toymods CLUB MEMBERS, rep means nothing anyway. it does not change their rights to post or sell things, so it has no effect for them.

anyway, good to see you realise what the m,ain points of discussion are, even if you disagree with the clubs view.

[jonra23]

I dont think that the current rules are in need of changing, Toymods is one of the better sites on the web for tech /general car stuff.

I originaly wanted to sell some stuff which is why i joined up, read the rules and worked out that i needed rep to sell stuff, by the time i had enough rep i sold what i wanted to sell outside of toymods so never did list it.


To cry over getting a non toyota sale item deleted from the toyota sale section seems a bit odd from someone who spends a reasonable amount of time on the forum, I wasn't aware of not being able a non toyota reg vehicle on here but if thats the rules guess you could always use ebay.

If anything is anoying it is not the general chat threads it is the chatter and me too posts that seems to get stuck on the end of each tech thread that keeps hitting you with new posts messages unless you unsubscribe, then you miss out on any more relavent info to the original thread.

regards
jon

[oldcorollas]

and because the rules aren't well defined enough that is when people get upset when threads are locked/deleted etc.

Rules proposed like the above are too ambiguous in my opinion.

LOL, and the whole reason this thread was started was because there are "too many rules"
it would be nice to leave it up to the common sense of the moderators and their mood at the time, but some people seem to find this overbearing.

perhaps you would like to draft some extra rules for posting in non-car discussion??
as a necomer, it would be interesting to see what you think should be acceptable (and before you start, threads with videos of dogs rooting and throwing up are not acceptable )

[Draven]

To cry over getting a non toyota sale item deleted from the toyota sale section seems a bit odd from someone who spends a reasonable amount of time on the forum, I wasn't aware of not being able a non toyota reg vehicle on here but if thats the rules guess you could always use ebay.

perfectly said

[XR Pilot]

you have definitely touched on the main issues here

so it is working then
the 162 thread is certainly one of the most chatty dedicated threads, and whilst it has it's technical content, it has a higher percentage of random chatter and crap than any other dedicated thread on toymods... which is one reason why deletion of the dedicated threads was considered.

While the rules may be as what the board sees to be working, do you guys really want to push new members away, and turn this into a secret society? Seems as though the blub will never really develop if you guys push new members away. RE dedicated threads, what is the issue with them? Agreed, 162 thread is quite chatty, however it works for those who it concerns, we have no issues in there and everyone gets a say how they want. Is the bandwidth of dedicated threads in particular a major concern? Because I can see NO other reason to delete these threads.

so it is working then
toymods is not a resource for absolute newbies. there are plenty of other places to learn abotu cars.. and just because you are a noob, doesn't mean you have to post. you are free to read and learn without posting crap people can get a feel of the place by READING and NOT POSTING. when i join a new forum, i read extensively to get a feel of the place and try and learn abotu stuff before i ask, and ALWAYS search before posting. (eg, when i joined the megasquirt yahoo list, i read back thru 15-20,000 messages.. no joke)
the point is to discourage people from postiong crap. some noobs to the forums understand and ask sensible questions from the very beginning. some never do

Agreed that this forum is not newbie friendly, I read a little before I posted here but pretty much signed up and got stuck into it though, as I could follow along fine, long time member on other forums etc. I know how it all works. As you have said though some noobs do the right thing from the get go, others need to be banned after 1 post. BUT re my point above, you will never get any of the "good" members joining up if this place does not seem attractive to the average newbie to the forums.

thats kind of the point of contention. why do we have non-car? and you have touched on the main point there....
let me rephrase and repeat
TOYMODS will not be happy when crap is posted anywhere and it WILL be deleted

Fair call on this here, not much more to say. Seems like alot of extra work to maintain non-car, but I think the board needs to review what direction the club wants to go in, because you will need something else other than just tech section to attract members, as I'm sure the current long-term members probably couldn't care if the non-car etc was deleted, but I think the board also needs to consider if tech is all the board has to offer, doesn't seem like much of a social side to the club to offer to new members.

some people abuse the rep system. that is an issue, but as mentioned recently, it will be overhauled soon. the main reason i see for having the rep system is to discourage people from posting crap when they first join the forum, and to prevent people from joining just to sell stuff. in that regard it is working.
as said before many times, for toymods CLUB MEMBERS, rep means nothing anyway. it does not change their rights to post or sell things, so it has no effect for them.

anyway, good to see you realise what the m,ain points of discussion are, even if you disagree with the clubs view.

I wonder if there is other ways to discourage people from posting crap/using this as a trading post when they first sign up when they post. Maybe minimum posts before allowing access to certain sections, say 30 posts elsewhere before getting access to posting in classifieds, it will be pretty obvious if a member is spamming threads just to get access to classifieds. This has worked well on some forums I've seen implement this, the spammers get weeded out quickly. It seems as though the only purpose the rep system serves at the moment is to prevent this problem in classifieds, and some members seem to get high-and-mighty about there rep status.

One more point, this is something that seems to be becoming an issue, members now worried if they will get neg repped just by trying to use the forum, because someone might disagree with what they post.

hmm. would i get neg repped for starting a thread asking who has the worst driveways and getting people to post pics of their driveway?

perhaps you would like to draft some extra rules for posting in non-car discussion??
as a necomer, it would be interesting to see what you think should be acceptable (and before you start, threads with videos of dogs rooting and throwing up are not acceptable )

Yep, fair call on this, its easy to comment but not actually want to do anything about it. Nothing wrong with what you have proposed, I think it is a good idea actually and agree with it. But my main concern with implementing something like that was perhaps not adding rules on top of rules is needed, but maybe just some clarification for what is already in place? Such as with the rule you proposed above, a statement near the rule saying:

Definition of discussion: If you think what you are intending to post has no other merit other than for people to say, WOW! thats cool, then we do not consider this to be discussion. Discussion is considered to be topics that promote healthy dialogue between members and allow for an exchange of ideas to take place, in which participants from the discussion will have had something to gain by participating.

There is probably loop-holes in what I have written above, but I think you get the point with what I am trying to say

EDIT: Also, if you guys truely want an input from a newcomer to read the rules etc (and was not just trying to see if I could back up what I said ) I would be happy to have a look and comment on the rules once my school exams are over, I don't have the time to spend reading over rules this week. I would be happy to contribute to the club in these sorts of ways, being a student and rebuilding a car on a non-existant budget I don't have the money to contribute as a club member as yet

[IN 05 NT]

To cry over getting a non toyota sale item deleted from the toyota sale section seems a bit odd from someone who spends a reasonable amount of time on the forum, I wasn't aware of not being able a non toyota reg vehicle on here but if thats the rules guess you could always use ebay.


jon

firstly......

i advertised it in the MISC section, where the rules say NON-car related sales only for MEMBERS to post in.....FINE.....

i posted my motorbike for sale in that section, following the rules clearly outlined,

yet it was deleted.....

so then acting like a fool and rather annoyed i posted it in the toyotas forsale, lol agreed not that smartest move.....

[oldcorollas]

toymods is not a secret society, but as of recently, unlesss you log in, you can only see the tech section. there is a reason for that

Agreed, 162 thread is quite chatty, however it works for those who it concerns, we have no issues in there and everyone gets a say how they want

yes, mostly chatty.. and it is good for the forum as it keep the crap out of other sections... but does the club want to have a whole bunch for 5000post threads full of crap?
what noob would want to read thru 5000 posts of dribble to find something out?

i fail to see your relation between good members and noobs. everyone can read the tech section and learn. anyone on teh intahweb. anyone who joins up can read most sections. reading is learning.
posting crap is not. this is not a forum for average noobs. that is the whooooole point. this is not a noob forum, like.. hot4's or boostloosin or whatever... there is a reason for that.

as for your next call.. the forum is not here to attract members. this is not a profit making exercise. the forums are a technical resource, they are not club advertising.
the CLUB offers a social side.
toymods is a CLUB, the forum is the TOYMODS CLUB technical resource.
i think once you grasp that, you will understand why there is such an issue with all the crap.

as for people worried about using forum cos they might get neg repped...
if you feel you have been wrognly neg repped, you email the moderator of the forum and have it revoked.
if you get neg repped for posting crap.. thats the point. people should not be neg repping for disagreeing with an opinion... but as previously mentioned, in Tech, it is more black and white.. fact or fiction (to a point). i personally think rep should be restricted to tech and general, and have all non-car positive reps removed.

i think your suggestion for discussion rules are good, however, people will complain abotu more rules
i think the board would value your input, and i understand where you are coming from with the nop budget thing

firstly......

i advertised it in the MISC section, where the rules say NON-car related sales only for MEMBERS to post in.....FINE.....
i posted my motorbike for sale in that section, following the rules clearly outlined,

so you are saying the rule should be rewritten to say that registerable vehicles are not allowed to be posted for sale in the Misc section?
sounds like a good idea

really tho, this is a toyota club, and while people have other interests, you would have a much wider audience if you advertise on ebay or the trading post, so i don't see what all the fuss is about?

\/\/\/ fairy nuff i meant more restricting any pos rep from non-car, but still alowing neg rep there