Carbon Canisters - Are they needed?!

[medwin46]

Ok guys,

Im trying to figure out whether or not i should include one in my car (3sgte AE86) as im nearing the final assembly.

I've done a bit of research but nothing can clarify for me whether or not it is essential to run one.

Im running a Microtech ECU etc so it will be tuned to suit the operating conditions of the car (sensors etc) and the fuel system is a surge tank setup with FPR, custom alloy tank and fuel rail.

Any help greatly appreciated.

[Toy77]

Hi mate,

A carbon canister is there for emissions reasons, not to help your car run as such. vapours from your fuel tank pass into the canister and are then burnt by your motor i believe.

In nsw you need on to get your car engineered, as it is part of the emission compliance.

Cheers
Stew

[Talasas]

They are sometimes also known as Charcoal Canisters - googling that might help too

e.g. http://www.smogtips.com/charcoal.cfm

It's more to do with complying with emissions standards than anything else. I can't say how effective they are in operation because I've never seen any proof. Some states require a minimum of a catalytic converter and a carbon canister.

edit: Arrgh, beat me to it - for some reason I lost my first one

[Roscos]

As you are running a custom fuel tank and there are probably no prevision for the a canister line in the tank l wouldn't worry about it but because the car came out with it the rego people might want one on.

Talk to an engineer about it.


Rosco

[medwin46]

Thanks guys, the only reason i thought they may have been needed to run was that i read the fumes were fed to the inlet and burnt, thus making me think hhmm something going on here lol

For the record, im in TAS lol inspection and engineering down here is sooooo breezy hehe be lucky if they pop the bonnet lol and when/if they do, they'll see the engineered plate and they're scared off by it. lol.

As far as the engineer ticking it off, speaking to him all he's gotta do is run an eye over it and check it looks ok (which im sure he'll be impressed with!) and take it for a drive to check the brakes pull it up well enough (will be running 6psi boost only hehe) and do an emissions test, so i gotta get a cat..... lol

[thechuckster]

cars in Oz have needed charcoal cannisters (part of the EVAP system) since before 1973 - they're nothing to do with the EFI system but a mechanism to catch and burn fuel vapours that don't return to liquid form in the fuel tank.

[Stefan]

I'm not sure whether I need a cat either - car originally didn't have one...

[Talasas]

Depends on whether it is regarded as part of the car or as part of the engine. If you didn't have one and the car is stock then you don't need one. Otherwise I assume you would.

[thechuckster]

rule of thumb: if the engine came with an O2 sensor, it came with a CAT ... ergo the engine should use a CAT regardless of the car that it's in or ECU.

example: 1GGTE into 1981 RA40 - original engine ran leaded and no CAT, 1GGTE came from a donor vehicle but has O2 sensor and half-cut included a CAT, to get engineered, car now needs CAT.

QED: doesn't matter if your car didn't have a CAT, it's what that engine used in it's original configuration.

[The Real Roadrunner]

and do an emissions test, so i gotta get a cat..... lol

for this reason you WILL need a charcoal canister.

my recomendation is find one off a nissan (s13 s14 r32 r33) and use the original bracet and mount it under the car near your tank (wouldn't want to ruin the appearance of your engine bay), just need a 1/4" fitting in the top of the tank and run a vac line from the purge fitting on your TB

cheers
linden

[medwin46]

for this reason you WILL need a charcoal canister.

my recomendation is find one off a nissan (s13 s14 r32 r33) and use the original bracet and mount it under the car near your tank (wouldn't want to ruin the appearance of your engine bay), just need a 1/4" fitting in the top of the tank and run a vac line from the purge fitting on your TB

cheers
linden

Please elaborate Linden, will the emissions test be able to tell whether or not there is a canister fitted>!

[infotechplus]

Thanks guys, the only reason i thought they may have been needed to run was that i read the fumes were fed to the inlet and burnt, thus making me think hhmm something going on here lol

For the record, im in TAS lol inspection and engineering down here is sooooo breezy hehe be lucky if they pop the bonnet lol and when/if they do, they'll see the engineered plate and they're scared off by it. lol.

As far as the engineer ticking it off, speaking to him all he's gotta do is run an eye over it and check it looks ok (which im sure he'll be impressed with!) and take it for a drive to check the brakes pull it up well enough (will be running 6psi boost only hehe) and do an emissions test, so i gotta get a cat..... lol

He'll probably take his noise meter with him when he takes it for a drive to do a noise test. I know John did that when he engineered my 1GGZE conversion in the Hilux.

As far as the CAT is concerned, the chuckster is right, if the engine had a cat you then need a cat. I think here in NSW they go off what the engine was in, not your car. When I did the emissions test at Penrith, that's what the guy told me (which I knew anyway as John the engineer warned me so I took all the spec sheets downloaded off the net for the donor car).

Not sure about the canister but I know I retained my Hilux unit when I did the conversion and just hooked it up. I'd hazard a guess and say your emissions test probably would be more of concern in other areas than whether or not you had a canister. I've heard of guys leaving it out up here and being OK. Is emissions testing free in Tas like it is up here?

Cheers,

Peter

[BigWorm]

The fuel tank should have a breather to allow for expansion & contraction of the fuel due to temperature change (I've never noticed but I assume all aftermarket "race" tanks/cells etc would have breathers?), and then the question is, what do you want to do with the fuel vapours that will make their way out of the tank.
There would have to be a safety issue along side the emmissions issue there?

A charcoal cannister solves both problems. Plus they're easy to get (really small ones not so easy) and can be stashed away virtually anywhere, as Linden said. I stashed mine under my front guard.
For something that is so easy, free, safe & legal, why not.

Hey Linden, do you put breathers in your tanks?

[The Real Roadrunner]

Hey Linden, do you put breathers in your tanks?

yep and run expansion tanks also incase it gets overfilled. tanks suck balls to make (or atleast complex ones do)

if your getting an emissions test done it has nothing to do with noise.

it is to check what vapours/fumes come out of your car and that means the WHOLE car not just the exhaust, thats why catch cans that aren't returned are illegal as well as many other things.

ideally there should only be 2 places that release gasses from your vehicle 1 exhaust and 2 the charcoal canister.

if you have a slight weep from a fitting or injector Oring they WILL fail you on the test.

db test wont be to hard to pass as its easy to make a plate bolt in in place of an exhaust gasket.

cheers
linden

[GasedT18]

If you have any regard for air quality and the environment and therefore a sensible and responsible person ;-) put one on. Hydrocarbons in the atmosphere contribute to smog and global warming.

If you want to do it well route the evaporated gases through a BVSV and or VSV and to the engine - this ensures any evaporated HCs get burned when the car is running and when it is not the charcoal cannister deals with the gases - only of course if the activated charcoal is not 'saturated'; canisters need to be replaced at intervals to be functional.

Here's one method http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gasedt18/evap.jpg

Be nice.

P.S. if anyone can help out with a 5M-E emissions diagram see my post in this forum http://www.toymods.net/forums/showthread.php?t=32147

I managed to get one from Toyota today after being rebuffed from the same place (different person) last week but as usual it is a slightly different version from what is on the car but it is closer than anything I've got. I'm in the process of tracing around the system now. Tip - metallic silver felt tip pens can be used to label the vacuum lines.

It's all probably pretty academic as in approx 15-20 years time there will be very little petrol around, probably a lot more ethanol but very expensive, and by that time the Chinese will have burned so much coal (others as well) that the future will be well and truly stuffed - lets not debate it here hey -> non car forum.

Cheers

David

[medwin46]

It's all probably pretty academic as in approx 15-20 years time there will be very little petrol around, probably a lot more ethanol but very expensive, and by that time the Chinese will have burned so much coal (others as well) that the future will be well and truly stuffed - lets not debate it here hey -> non car forum.

Cheers

David

They've been saying for 20 years that the oil is about to run out, hasnt happened yet... Its people saying stuff like this thats pushing the fuel price up. Theres no way i can prove the oil isnt going to run out, as theres no way anyone can, nor can they prove that it is. Technology is moving at a rapid pace, there'll be an alternative by the time oil runs out.

[GasedT18]

P.S. and without starting a reputation sh$t fight, v8supra your negative repping my post "stop using you're computer hippy its using precious fossil fuels to run!" is below the belt as I contributed constructive information and my opinion is just that and you contributed diddly squat.

By the way "you're" is a contraction of 'you are', correct usage is 'your' and "its" should have an apostrophe vis-a-vis 'it's' which is a contraction of 'it is'.

D

[brett_celicacoupe]

example: 1GGTE into 1981 RA40 - original engine ran leaded and no CAT, 1GGTE came from a donor vehicle but has O2 sensor and half-cut included a CAT, to get engineered, car now needs CAT.

my engineer said if the car didnt come with a cat in the beginning then you dont need one with a different engine.

[fatboy13]

Emissions tests go by the engine not by the car, IIRC.
I had to have my '71 Crown emissions tested after i went 7M, and i had to have a cat and a charcoal canister, as these were both used on the 7M. This was what my engineer said at the time. And when i was having the car emissions tested he was comparing results against a sheet for the emissions regulations of the time of the motor.

[YLD-16L]

Same here, the corollas I have had engineered had to have Cats, the '73 one didn't require a charcoal cannister though, the '79 one did but obviously we just retained the one that was there.