roll cage info (design,cams,rta)

[45aken]

hello,
just wondering if anyone can give info on roll cages. im looking to put a full cage in my ae86, but im unsure of where to start. i know what i need and have plenty of designs (plus a master welder/pipe fab), but im just wanting to know if these is any special things i must be aware of to get the car through RTA and to race it on the track. like can and can't do's. maybe this thread can become a reference thread for everyone then.

materials?
structure?
RTA and CAMS approval? (the car will be drifted, raced, and street driven)

PS im having minimal interior and will need harness mounts for a passenger.

thanks all

[Dom-AE71]

as far as i know you cannt legally run a full roll cage in NSW on the street. the rear half can be welded in but must be covered with padding and also engineered, so if you wanted to run a fullcage on the track you would have to make the front section removable.

for cams the cage has to be made of mild steel as they no longer allow alloy cages.

what type of racing are you doing? unless you are entering the car into a CAMS affilated event ie IPRA events you dont need to comply with CAMS regulations because only events like IPRA events are you required to adhere to their guidelines.

[bathurst-91]

Dom> This is what i also hear but then I see cars on the road with full-cages (constantly).. cars that are apparently engineered.

I guess it depends on your engineer

[Cool1]

We can fit a full cage with side intrusion bars in any car and have it road legal in any state. Only a handful of companys in Australia are approved to do this, So forget wanting to do it yourself.

[sirbabblealot]

Also it depends on the diammeter of the tube you use, like the roll cage i have in mine won't comply due to the tube being 48mm the regulation says you can use 50 or 45 any thing in the middle does not comply.
How the tubes are welded together you have to butt them up neatly you can't squash the pipe to make it easyer

[TurboRA28]

Thats a pain about having to have it made by only a few workshops in australia. As I have access to all the equipment to make my own, but sounds like that'd be illegal.

[4agte]

We can fit a full cage with side intrusion bars in any car and have it road legal in any state. Only a handful of companys in Australia are approved to do this, So forget wanting to do it yourself.

dont suppose you have a workshop in sydney that does it or know of one?

[Cool1]

No, our workshop is in Brisbane.

[Cool1]

Joel if you found a workshop that could do it, you could possibly do the work your self and get them to sign off on it. I would highly doubt it, but you could try.

[Jonny Rochester]

I am about to start building my own roll cage, for AE86. A friend has just finnished theirs, with help from a approved workshop.

I bought the CAMS 2006 Manual, for $44. Here is a summary of what I think it says:

The roll cage must consist of:
- a middle hoop (near or behind B pillar),
- front hoop or lateral bars (up the A pillar and back to middle hoop)
- back stays (2 bars going towards shock towers)
- one diagonal bar, with the top mounted on drivers side.
- mounting plates 3mm thick

Side intrusion bars and others are optional. There are requirements about how far away the joins are and that. Side intrusion bars can only be welded at half the door height. Things like that... Top of diagonal has to be within 100mm of the top.

Materials:
all tubes have to be 350Mpa cold drawn steel. It is still a mild steel, but still costs a bit because its better than the stuff exhaust shops use.

Middle hoop: 44.45mm x 2.5mm thick, or 50mm x 2.0mm thick.
Other tubes: 38mm x 2.5mm thick, or 40mm x 2.0mm thick.

There are lots of rules about the mounting feet. Basicaly the plates have to be 3mm thick. There are options about welding or bolting.


For drifting, no roll cage required, but is recomended. (I expect this to change soon).

In Tasmania, we have "Special Interest" rego with SI number plates. A fair few race and rally cars have this and there is not a problem with roll cages.

[Jonny Rochester]

Sirbabblealot: The CAMS manual also says they will consider tubing of other sizes, and other designs. I would not worry about having a inbetween size, it just means the certification process maybe a bit more involved.

[ra23celica]

I believe the CAMS manual also stated that they have to certify the roll cage before you compete in your first event and record that certification in the CAMS vehicle log book. You should call your local CAMS office and get the number of their roll cage expect who should also be able to tell you about the road legal requirements as well. Make a friend out of the guy as he may well be the one who gives you final approval to race the thing.

[gearb0x]

http://forums.club4ag.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=129952

an example of what not to do, a shame though as he seems like a half decent fabricator

[45aken]

i am sure you are allowed to have a full for the street, as long as it is engineered. i was looking to do it myself, but i have thought abit about it and i think my like is worth a bit more than the $1000 it would cost to get a proper one built.

i am thinking of adding a V brace which connects the rear loop to the top of the tranny tunnel back to the rear loop.

i am also getting the front loop welded to a bar which goes throught the firewall and connects to the front strut towers.

hopefully all this will increase the chassis stiffness a fair amount.

[Jonny Rochester]

I just looked at that one on club4ag. Here are the main mistakes I found (if it was in Australia):

The tubes are not as close to the A pillar and frame as they could be.
The bending radius is wrong, and too deformed.
The middle hoop is probably too far forward
The rear stays are not welded within 100mm of the top corners.
Material is not 350Mpa seamless
Rear bars extend too far, past the suspension points.

For Improved Production racing at least, you are not allowed to have bars extending through the firewall, and you are not allowed bars extending back past the suspension points.

You will see the bolt in cages for AE86 in Japan, have a S bent around the dash bourd. My understanding is that you can only have 1 bend here, and the lower section has to be strait. To get only one bend (not a S bend), and have the front tube close to the A pillar, you have to have a cutout in the dashbourd.

[oldcorollas]

i am sure you are allowed to have a full for the street, as long as it is engineered. i was looking to do it myself, but i have thought abit about it and i think my like is worth a bit more than the $1000 it would cost to get a proper one built.

previously in NSW you could have front half ONLY if it met the requirements for head space and was foam covered. in the majority of cars, it is not possible to provide that amount of headspace (acoording to the diagrams) and so a front half of cage was not legal.

new national regs draft.
http://www.dotars.gov.au/transreg/vs...28sept2005.pdf

section LK8

only 4 point allowed. removable 6 point is allowed.
fixed 6 point cage is NOT allowed
it even specifically says cages with tubes running down Apillar and Bpillar
are not suitable for road use

figure LK14 shows head space requirements

also says seat belt mountings can be incorporated into vertical section of main hoop, but doesn't expressly prohibit mounting anywhere else.. would need to provide similar strength to main hoop tho.

it also states that horizontal braces alongside front seats are not acceptable (from acces point of view)

if you have a workshop that can certify a full cage before the new regs come in, better get it done quick

[sirbabblealot]

I know in qld you can have a full roll cage you just have to get it engineered/ blue plated. The car i brought was from nsw and it did have a full roll cage but they cut the front part out due to the thinking it was illegal but well they may be wrong

[45aken]

when will these new regs come in?!
if i cant go a full cage, is there even much point in spending the $xxx on a half rear?
worst comes to worst i'll half rear then seam weld/brace the front.

rear 4 point from bond roll bars is only $539!, $839 for the full cage. cams approved etc

[kayzee]

Ring Brown Davis Automotive in Melbourne. David Brown I think is on the CAMS committee for roll cage design. He would also know the regs for all states regarding cages. They can sell you a kit for a 6 point weld in cage including intrusion bars ( both around dash and through dash).
Cheers.

[takai]

He is also on the Vic RTA advisory committee, so he can give you the definate word on the topic, at least for Victoria.