Blacktop 20V Sludge?

[3sgte]

Hello.

I have had a blacktop 20V Corolla Wagon for about 1.5 years now.

It had a fresh oil change when I bought it, and I have changed the oil in it 2 times since then.
I have put very few km on it, less than 12,000 in that time.

When I bought the car, I looked in the oil filler cap, and it wasn't pretty. Not scary, but not pretty either. Definitely a brown laquer color in there, with the metal still clearly visible.

Now, I check the oil, and it isn't as pretty as I expect, so I pull the oil filler cap off and there's been an accumulation of sludge!

Are these things known for sludge?
I have put a total of about 350,000 kms on other 4A/7A engines, and they have always remained clean inside.
I realize my current short-trip driving style isn't helping much, but geeze!

I'll be changing the PCV valve post-haste, I wondered of these things have a reputation or not.

I also heard someone else say that tensioners cause trouble on these.
How so?

[oldcorollas]

is it overheating badly?

[3sgte]

No overheating at all, it runs dead nuts perfect.

[Trekka273]

Sorry for bringing up an old thread, but I previously had a silvertop that we bought from an importer for use in an off road car. We stripped the engine as soon as we got it and it had lots of sludge throughout the engine, yet when we drained the oil we didn't really see any.

Could the sludge have been in your engine when you got it and is only just now working its way loose and depositing where you can see it?

[ViPeR_NiPPleX]

apparently its condensation. the second bt20v halfcut we got at work was a bit sludgy around the oil filler cap...

[Bananaman]

apparently its condensation. the second bt20v halfcut we got at work was a bit sludgy around the oil filler cap...

You're talking creamy sludge though? Think trekka means black sludge?

[3sgte]

In my case, certainly black sludge.
It doesn't appear to be at the point where I am in danger of having the oil pickup blocked, but who knows.

I will post a picture later.

I will assume that part of the issue is moisture and crankcase ventilation however.

All I can do is change the oil and PCV, if it grenades, then off to the scrapheap with it!

[oldcorollas]

ahh, the short trips, esp when cold, aren7t going to help the oil keep itself clean....

get it up to temp and take it for a decent drive every now and again, like an hour or something, to let the moisture and fuel in the oil evaporate..
if you only do short trips.. the crap never leaves the oil....

[Trekka273]

My own opinion, and it is just that, an opinion, is that in Japan they don't seem to ever worry about changing the oil, because they know they will have to change over the motor/car at fairly low kilometres, so they don't bother. Obviously with the extremely cold temperatures that they can get in Japan, when combined with old oil, causes a lot of sludge to form?

[oldcorollas]

nope, oil gets changed as per factory servicing...
in snow areas, most people seem to spend 5-10 minutes warming (while pushing snow off) and then leave the car idling whenever they go into shops.. and it takes 30 mins to get anywhere anyway

[Sam_Q]

maybe its worth looking into that trick of running some diesel through the oil to clear it out.

[ae86represent]

This is my sugestion, and is the same procedure we use when a customers car has severe sludge in the engine.

Drain oil, Fill car with diesel oil (Diesel oil has a far higher concentration of detergents than most petrol engine oils). Then purchase a bottle of 'Wurth Engine oil Flush'. Idle the vehicle for about one hour (No need to drive and definatly don't bounce the thing off the limiter).

Drain oil again, change filter (Use cheap one as it will only be on there for about a week). Fill engine with a high quality mixed fleet engine oil. (Again will have a higher concentration of detergents). Drive vehicle around for approx one week and plan a road trip somewhere, say about 2Hrs straight driving so the engine can get nice and heat soaked and the oil can get nice and hot and thin.

Drain oil after approx one week and fill with your choice of high quality engine oil, replace cheap filter with genuine toyota one. This should have removed a good portion of the sludge build up in your engine.

Cheers,
J.

[3sgte]

The main question I had is if 20V 4AGs are known for sludging.

4AFE and 7AFE of the same vintage are very much the opposite in my experience, no matter what you do to them, they will never sludge up.

[oldcorollas]

not known for it. unless broken.
got busted/lower temp rated thermostat? car not getting up to temp? PCV blocked

[kingmick]

more to the point, what makes sludge!
You know that and you know why its there in any engine.

[monkeymajik]

What is a good method to test if your PCV is blocked?

[c2888]

In my warranty and service manual, it tell of two service schedules.
Normal maintenance and severe conditions.

Severe driving conditions that affect engine oil and oil filter are:
Towing a trailer, using a camper or car top carrier.
Repeated short trips less than 8km and outside temperature remains below freezing.

Under severe conditions it shows that oil and filter change intervals halve to 5000kms.

All motors will develop sludge/buildup if not serviced at the recommended intervals. Even Toyotas!
Most common are the much relied on but sorely neglected Camrys and Corollas that make up the aussie Toyota fleet. But I've seen lots of Celicas too, but they are just Camrys in drag right? /flamesuit ON

I've seen spotless engines at 350000kms in lots of vehicles, most of the ones that make it that far are the commercial vans, Hiaces, Hiluxs etc. Probably because they get serviced properly, if it's your money maker, you take care of it.

The most buildup I've seen was in a SDV10 motor, 5S-FE for the non Camry fans
Buildup was about 10mm off the top of the cam bearing caps

Oil has a finite working life, it contains detergents and conditioners that help reduce and to an extent remove buildup. Run the oil for too long, too long depends on operating conditions, and the oil simply runs out of the additives, so where do all the contaminents go? Straight on the non moving parts of your engine.

Sludge is not so much of a problem, it's more the effect it causes. It insulates the metal that it's covering, so all the bearing caps run a little bit hotter, more heat, engine oil has less working life because of it.

Running the oil level low can also accelerate the engine oils working life, as running at the bottom of the dipstick reduces your capacity by about a litre in most toyotas. With most of them only having a 4 litre sump, you lose 25% of your capacity. So you gain more heat because the oil has to go around more often.

I've seen a fair few import toyota motors that are quite heavily sludged, it tends to be the cheaper more disposable cars that don't get serviced. Mechanics charge heaps over there, and it's probably cheaper to NEVER service your car as you're gonna dump it in 3 years anyway. Lift the oil cap on a 1UZ-FE halfcut and it's pretty much guaranteed to be minty fresh in the valve cover, because they get love as they are expensive to buy.

Go here and read about it more as I'm sure I've forgotten something.
http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html

Dan

[3sgte]

not known for it. unless broken.
got busted/lower temp rated thermostat? car not getting up to temp? PCV blocked

Standard thermostat working normally, PCV not blocked.
Replaced PCV, as I am obviously not able to check all aspects of its operation.

c2888:

I appreciate the thoughts, but what you wrote isn't entirely on target, or to the point of my thread here.
In the case of my Corolla, it spent at least 9 years in service in Japan, so I don't think a generalization about being dumped in 3 years is valid.
I have 10 years working at a dealer over here, and I have done at least 20 #mz engines for sludging.

I agree that oil change frequency has a huge effect on sludging, but the fact remains that some engines are more prone to this than others.
Mine is not the first blacktop 20V I have seen with sludge, but I wanted to see if others have experienced this too.

Perhaps others can benefit from this.
It seems that it is necessary to change the oil on a VVT 4AG more frequently than on an older non-VVT 4AG.

Perhaps the intake manifold design, in conjunction with VVT, affects the ability of the PCV on the blacktop 4A-GE to adequtely ventilate the engine. If "adequate" isn't the best word, then I should make the comparison (ie. not as good as the ventilation for the 7A and 4A-FE), as the 4A-FE and 7A-FE have NO sludge tendancies whatsoever.

As for 1UZ, that engine prior to VVT adoption has almost no tendancy toward sludge, after VVT adoption for 1UZ/3UZ, the tendancy increased slightly.

[Trekka273]

I am not sure if the blacktop engine in particular is prone to sludge. The engine I purchased and stripped had no sign of sludge at all. In fact, I was very surprised at how clean the engine was inside, I was expecting there to be some sludge, etc but there was none at all.

I wonder if it could have something to do with how long the engine is left to sit between being sold in Japan and then purchased in another country? Perhaps the time spent not being started, etc and being exposed to varying weather could have some effetc on the oil in the engine? Just a thought...

[allencr]

I can't see it being related to any specific engine, but to its use & maintenance. I used to think it was related to heat that would bake the dirty oil, but twin cams have a lot of temp. difference between the intake & exhaust sides, yet any buildup is just about the same.

More blowby means more carbon & smegma in the oil that will build up another layer every time it cools down.
I'd be surprised if any non-carb has a PVC.