5MGE and 7MGE Oil Pumps

[Art Racing]

I have read in the conversion threads that the 5MGE and 7MGE oil pumps are interchangeable, depending on the sump. Does anyone know if there is any difference between the two pumps, ie if the 7MGE or 7MGTE has a larger pump than the 5MGE or anything like that? The question comes about because the race car has a hybrid pump in it, seems to be part 5MGE, part something else, part hand made, and I am trying to work out why they built it like they did. If the 7MGTE had larger gears in it or something, then I could understand. Anyone had the two pumps side by side to compare? All I know is the 5MGE pump I bought brand new (presumably a Cressida one) is nothing like the one in the race car!

Regards,

John
ART Racing

[thechuckster]

sorry, no 5MGE pump... but here's two 7MGE pumps i prepared earlier:

<image link removed, no longer hosted, sorry>

Wilbo & I swapped sumps (and obviously pumps/pickups) on the 7MGE that's currently in the MZ10.

If you want the full res images (and there's others with similar detail), PM me and i'll email them.

cheers,
Charles.

[Art Racing]

Thanks Charles, quite different. So is the one on the left a Cressida, and the one on the right a Supra sump/pump? The left hand sump looks like the 5MGE Cressida sump that the race car's sump is made from.

JA

[ed]

the guts are effectively the same though
from what i saw with 5m/7m/7mgte pumps laid out in front of me, there was no way one would pump more volume, or have a higher pressure than another

[thechuckster]

i'd have to ask wilbo what cars they came out of - cressida and ??? - but yup, difference is a result of sump configuration - we swapped them over so the 7M would fit into a MZ10 (and obviously a MA61).

From memory, the one of the right is in the car now (is a bit late to be wandering around the yard with a torch :-) ) - there was a boss in the block for both dipstick locations - we merely drilled out one to suit and blocked off the old with a nut/bolt/stud-lock-loctite

Are you using some 7mge parts (e.g. crank, block, etc) with a 5/6mge head? Craig Aggio's old supra rally car was a hybrid like that - seemed to be a strong engine.

we noticed between the two 7MGEs a difference in the counter-weights on the crank - we figured the newer engines had dual weights at the end of each rod - whereas the older engines seems to have fewer weights overall.

cheers,
Charles.

[Art Racing]

Engine is essentially the same as it was in 1987, won't delve too much into it, it is still running to the same rules and hence has to be legal. Crank is a Toyota one, will say that! Not too many mods to the crank, bit of lightening, nitrided and larger flywheel bolts. 5M block, although it has no numbers. I have had 2 or 3 5M blocks alongside each other, and all were different. One casting has larger webbing externally, and this is the one in the car. Rods are currently standard but well prepped, I also have 3 sets of carillos for it, but they require a different comp height piston to what we have used. This engine is basically a 'mule' to get the car back out there, should still be good for 230hp or so but nowhere near the 290-300 that they were getting out of it, although I believe we know how to get that. Just collecting parts for engine 2 now, hence the oil pump question.

Oil pump appears to be the Cressida type, but with the large cast pickup cut off and a Supra style flange welded on to the pump body, with a modified pickup. Line from pump to block is also custom, but I can't fathom why when it is no larger than the standard one. I can't see why they just didn't use a pump just like the RH one in your photo, would appear that it would fit perfectly. As Peter was able to get any Toyota part he wanted (as a Toyota and TRD dealer) there must have been a reason, I just can not work out what it is.

JA

[clubagreenie]

All m block pumps will fit each other. This is from experience from trying everything for a conversion. Sump location is the main difference plus 2m pump in 5m and later blocks will be hit by counterweight but only at revs not if turned by hand and spreads aluminium paste through everything.

[Negative Boost]

In the picture above, the Sump/Pump on the left is also out of an MA61 (front sump) 5ME oil pump.
The Sump/Pump on the right is also out of an MA71 (mid sump) 7MGTE oil pump.

I know this becuase i have just recently examined both those pumps when i swapped the oil pump in the 7M for the 5M oil pump, so it would fit into the front sump that was required to go onto the 7M, so the engine would clear the crossmember.
I also have a spare 7MGTE oil pump if you need one.

[Robbos_Toyotas]

all m series pumps are interchangeable, I used a 4m one on a 7mge. i needed to bend the pickup shaft, but no big deal - they all fit.

[thechuckster]

my previous post is wrong - like NegativeBoost says - the one on the left is what's in the MZ10

[Art Racing]

For anyone interested, here is the sump in the race car. Oil pan extended at the front, hold approx 8 litres combined with the external cooler and lines (bit over a litre just in those). 4 trap doors arranged diagonally in the base of the sump to keep oil near the pickup, hard to see in this photo. Scraper/windage tray full length, oil drain tray around the pickup is under the two external drains back from the cam housings.

John

[thechuckster]

query: did they plumb the cooler up like a stock engine (bleeds off oil to the cooler then dumps cooled oil back to the sump)? or was it a full flow cooler using a sandwich plate at the oil filter mount?

btw: thanks for posting this kind of info - is useful to see how toyota built full-house racing cars!!

[Art Racing]

Full flow cooler with a sandwich plate. Also had gearbox, diff and fuel coolers. Currently not fitted with the gearbox cooler as short races don't require it, still has the diff (TRD electric circ pump can be switched on and off) and fuel coolers.

John

[whatthe?]

Quick one for the guys who'd know by the sounds of it; The 7M oil pump has a relief on it, is that the only valve that controls oil flow through the oil cooler? The reason I ask is that I'm thinking of using a sandwich plate with a dash fitting outlet and inlet straight off the block (removing the big ugly filter mount), running a cooler off the outlets on the plate and mounting a filter staright on it

[ed]

bzzztt...

the oil pump relief valve controls global engine oil pressure only

there is a separate relief valve in the filter mount on the 7mgte which regulates the cooler flow

thirdly, all the oil squirters in thye 7mgte have small sprung ball valves which further regulate global oil pressure. theyre pretty high up the oil line too, plumbed into the main oil gallery

[whatthe?]

Bugger. So if I want a cooler I need the ugly big mount then. Ah well, cest la vie

[ed]

NB - worth mentioning for others reading that John's engine is running a high pressure full flow in ilne oil cooler system

the stock 7mgte oil cooler is a bypass type low pressure cooler with sump return

[ed]

alt to sadwich plate: full flow inline relocation

[whatthe?]

NB - worth mentioning for others reading that John's engine is running a high pressure full flow in ilne oil cooler system

the stock 7mgte oil cooler is a bypass type low pressure cooler with sump return

Grr cant find any info on this. Sounds intriguing.... I'd heard that 7M coolers were rather pointless things by design

Edit - Should have refreshed the page . So, whats the downside for me doing this?

[ed]

cost, as always

really need a minimum of -12 lines/fittings

oh, add to that the fact that full flow means you may over-cool the oil if youre not giving the engine enough of a hartd time, all the time

the 7m bypass cooler 'did' work, but its certainly not a massif amount of flow. my cooler never got hot, but warm enough to say there was some hot oil in there sometimes