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Thread: 4AFE into Toyota TA47 -80 RWD.

  1. #1
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    Default 4AFE into Toyota TA47 -80 RWD.

    Hello! Im doing my first engine swap in a Toyota Carina ta47 from a 3T-C engine to a 4AFE.

    Why go threw the trouble for that low bhp gain? a good question but it's mainly because im a engineer student on a budget and 4AGE's are quite rare in Sweden.

    Also, i haven't seen anyone do this conversion. Guessing it's similar to a 4age 20v, but let's find out?

    So the object is a station wagon with 9000 km on the clock and looks like this:





    I have manage to get my hands on a T50 gearbox with a A-bellhousing. Also bought a Corolla e92 with a first gen 4AFE as a donor car.
    Soon more to come:
    Last edited by Ceasar; 14-03-2019 at 04:38 AM.

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    Unhappy Re: 4AFE into Toyota TA47 -80 RWD.

    So here is the sitting 3T-c that are in the car.


    The 4AFE from the Corolla.



    The T50 22 spline gearbox with A house. Measured it and externally it seems to be the same as the t40 that's in the car



    First step was to remove the 3T-C from the car and the 4AFE from the doner car.
    Keept as much as i could from the electric's of the 4AFE.

    Got a 4AGE flywheel and clutch with the gearbox when i bought it, But with the 4AFE loose i saw that the flywheel pattern is different. from 8 bolts(4AGE) 6 bolts(4AFE). the flywheels seems to have the same diameter so just keept the 4afe. Im afraid of the starter engine rough, as it will change to the opposite side thanks to the t50 housing and seems like the starter is not meshing 100% with the flywheel. But here they are mounted toughter





    So from just lowering in the car i notice a lot of things that would need to be fixed.
    *Distributer to close to firewall (Knew that)
    *Thermostat/water housing to close to firewall
    *Propshaft wrong spline to fit gearbox (20 on original) (22 on new)
    *Intake is hitting firewall aswell.
    *Header is going straight down where new engine mounts need to be fitted.

    So conclusion. this will be fun...
    Since im a student my budget for new stuff is very tight and the garage im in have only a angle grinder + mag weld i will try to solve it as basic as possible

  3. #3
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    Default Re: 4AFE into Toyota TA47 -80 RWD.

    First thing to attack was the firewall issue, i will try to get this car registered in sweden which have quite a lot of laws of what can be modified i will not cut into the firewall.

    So either i will have to move the engine 15 cm forward and lengthen propshaft.
    Or relocate all the parts thats hitting it.

    I choose the way to relocate stuff, i have about 4-5 cm of clearence from the firewall.



    So for the distributer i choose to steal the idea of putting it in the front of the engine, but cant afford the kit from the 20v. So i have started to 3D-print a model to hold it which hopefully later will be replace with a cnc metal part. I did som basic FEM calulations and since the forces arn't that high on the roation i should manage ok if it's not vibrating itself to death.





    Next was the water. I found alot of room under the intake for movement of the waterhousing, sadly the water will get to hot for 3d printing the reloaction piping so had to do it with a lot of grinding and welding.
    The housing had a really hard geometry to get a pipe out between the bolts. But the first half looked somewhat like this:


    Think it will leak but thats a problem for later, did one more part like this so it snuggly rounded the engine to unde the intake where the hosuing is now located. (will solve a better photo for the complete solution.

    The next problem was the header.
    I found out that the 7afe/ newer header were not cast iron and better flowing so too be able to weld it/change it i bougth a newer one and the header bolt pattern is the same between generations:


    Sadly i notic that this went straight into my oilfilter. so i thott that if i exteended it.


    This was a really bad move since its now hitting the steering rack on my car since im driving on the opposite side of the road. I think if you have it on the other side this mod would be enough.

    Got a little bit mad and solved it by cutting the whole header to pieces and started to just fit and weld bit by bit.

    Flow wise i think this is better then the original but still not that great. I manage to still sync 1-4 and 2-3 headrunners.



    Did some porting on the inside to take away some of my horrible weldingskills.

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    Default Re: 4AFE into Toyota TA47 -80 RWD.

    Next up the last problem of firewall clearance ... and it was a nightmare. The intake! Since i only had a mag i thought that rewelding it was a bad idea so started to do some 3d printed re-route. This was a really bad idea since the clearance was to tight and the flow was compromised.



    Then got inspired by a thread on this forum: tech question: DIY 4age cut n shut inlet manifold
    where Aust162 reweld a 4age intake from fwd to rwd.



    The 4age header have simular front and back sides so didn't look to hard (if you could weld aluminium, which i cant).

    But found a think called alutite which make it able to kind of hard solder aluminum so i went for it.


    One of the sides has a straight cut but the other one was a horrible angle + you have to cut into the first runner a little bit to get vaccum and other components with you.
    After hours of filling material which was very hard since i did it with a small propane torche i manage to do it (unsure if it will hold airtight tough but seems solid) Sadly the first runner have 90 degree angel to it... not good for flow at all but hopefully it will run.
    Also the EGR is a bit up in the air.. (later problem)





    Hope this will work...


    Now to a the easy part. The engine mount's!

    I notic that i could reuse almost the whole setup of the original, i only had to lengthen it a bit since the 4afe is more narrow then the 3tc. Also the pattern to bolt to the engine is different. Solved it by making a template by cardboard and drilled it out.




    The engine is now (what i know) centered but i seems like manage to give the engine some degrees of tilt. Hope it wont matter.

  5. #5
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic
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    Default Re: 4AFE into Toyota TA47 -80 RWD.

    All 4as have that subtle tilt. You can use a 20 spline t50 from a car with a t engine like a ta22 or even another carina with a 5 speed and swap the housings. Then your tailshaft will work.

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    Default Re: 4AFE into Toyota TA47 -80 RWD.

    Thanks for the input Littleredspirit, good to know that the tilt is natural!

    For the spline problem i bougth a SR5 frontend of the driveshaft, got to mesurments and they are almoste identical i length!


    So that's solved.

    The engine is now in the car and got the wiring loom from the engine fixed with some extensions of some cables like catalytic converter and the distributor.
    Got the engine to crank aswell. But the sound was really horrible.

    Original the starter is on the intake side of the 4AFE but with the T50 it need to be moved to the other side. The starter will not fit in the whole on that side so i cut a little bit of the flange of and made a new hole.
    It seems like the fitment did not become so good...

    I solved it by ordering a 4age mk1 mr2 starter that i god cheap, it should be the right fitting with the holes on that one... i hope!

    The other problem im now facing the the wiring of the ECU, electrics have never been my strong side of cars.. So i'm sitting here trying to know what of all the wires i need to just run the ECU as a standalone system but dont dare to cut out wires since i dont know if they are needed.


    Do anyone know a good way to do this? Found what to use when doing a 4age but they seem a little bit different so cant use that info.

  7. #7
    Junior Member Grease Monkey
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    Default Re: 4AFE into Toyota TA47 -80 RWD.




    You need to ground the ones which say ground and put power to the relays

    Also need to wire in the ignition

    Should be it to get it running

  8. #8
    Toymods Vice President Chief Engine Builder TheToyman75's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AFE into Toyota TA47 -80 RWD.

    Following

    Interesting choice and seems like a lot of work for very minimal gain when there are so many 3T-C performance parts around.
    1971 2T-B Celica TA22 ST.
    1971 2T-? Celica TA22
    1973 2T-G Celica TA22, aka "The Unicorn".
    1975 2T-G Celica TA27 GT
    1976 2T-G Celica TA23, aka "The Colonel".
    1985 3F Auto FJ62 Landcruiser
    1989 7M-GTE MA70 Supra, aka "The Poopra"
    History: Rods Classic Celica Sampler thread.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: 4AFE into Toyota TA47 -80 RWD.

    Hmm isn't that a 4E ecu not a 4A? or are they the same?
    Well that kind of the problem i have 3 big connectors coming from the engine, one goes straigth into the ecu and i have all those wires as i took it out.

    Now it's one from the cabin that goes straight into the other socket of the ecu. That one got wires all over the place and i dont know what to cut or keep there?
    Will try to take some good photos of the main cabels and see if you can help me out. Feel very confused.

    Yeah it's abit of a weird choice but here in Sweden it's very rare with both 4AGE and 3TC but are flooded with 4AFE. And the law's on engine swap are very strict, but i can easy do a engine swap to a 4A-FE and registrate it legaly.
    Also that im a student and doing it as cheap as possible just to learn and almoste got the 4afe for free

    But it ended up with alot more work then i first planned...


    Also i dont seem to be able to upload photos on here by attachment, do anyone know why? now im linking my photos from another page.
    Last edited by Ceasar; 19-03-2019 at 09:13 AM.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: 4AFE into Toyota TA47 -80 RWD.

    Well here are the ecu with the 4 main wires that i have going into the engine bay.
    I feel that i have somewhat controll over 1 and 2. But can figure out what all the wires going up inside the dashboard is doing for 3 and 4...
    My Ecu only have 2 connectors one from the engine bay and the one on the picture. And all 4AFE Ecu electrical maps i find have 3 connectors?



    1) Here is what i think the main power wire from the battery? migth be wrong..



    4) This one on the other hand im quite clueless.. it connects to the engine bay and im guessing its sensors to the dashbord?



    3) the ecu connector. this is going kind of all over the place and im unsure if i need it all?



    All input i can get would really help since im kind of getting more and more confused how i should wire this as a stand-alone circuit in the car and just activate it with ignition.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by Ceasar; 19-03-2019 at 09:41 AM.

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    Toymods Vice President Chief Engine Builder TheToyman75's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AFE into Toyota TA47 -80 RWD.

    If you use the Tapatalk app from your phone you can attach the images that way.
    Otherwise you need to host them and post them via the "img" tag to your hosted location.
    1971 2T-B Celica TA22 ST.
    1971 2T-? Celica TA22
    1973 2T-G Celica TA22, aka "The Unicorn".
    1975 2T-G Celica TA27 GT
    1976 2T-G Celica TA23, aka "The Colonel".
    1985 3F Auto FJ62 Landcruiser
    1989 7M-GTE MA70 Supra, aka "The Poopra"
    History: Rods Classic Celica Sampler thread.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: 4AFE into Toyota TA47 -80 RWD.

    Hmm what is the ED-Monitor in the cluster? And do i need to keep that wire? search and dont get any hit on it.

    Also manage to get a good picture of the electric diagram. I also wonder about the AC-amp that i marked with the red ring.
    Were is this located? cant find the wire.
    Is the AC amp to increase the voltage for the distributer or is the AC for the aircooling?



    thanks
    Last edited by Ceasar; 20-03-2019 at 09:29 AM.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: 4AFE into Toyota TA47 -80 RWD.

    After almoste a month now i still havn't solve the electrics of the car and starting to give up on this project...

    Got it all wired and got enginepump working power to ecu and to distributer.
    But i dont get any spark. dont know if it because i swaped the distrubuter backwards or if the wiring is bad ( i kind of kept all the engine electronics stock)

    Do anyone know if the sensors would block the ecu from firing?

    Really reallt need help.

  14. #14
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic jondee86's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AFE into Toyota TA47 -80 RWD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceasar View Post
    But i dont get any spark. dont know if it because i swapped the
    distrubuter backwards or if the wiring is bad
    There does not seem to be a lot of useful information on what happens when the distributor is moved from the back of the engine to the front. This conversion was done a lot on 4AGE 20V engines and the results varied from "didn't work at all" to "worked great". The most successful setup is the one suppled by SQ Engineering that leaves the base of the factory distributor in place and only relocates the high tension components to the front of the engine.



    This is not possible in your case as the distributor is integrated with the coil and igniter. This means that the distributor will be turning "backwards" and it is possible that the crank position signals (G- and G1) are now occurring at the wrong time in the 4-stroke cycle. If so, the ECU will be sending the IGT signal to the igniter at the wrong time.

    Probably the best way to test if the ignition system is actually trying to spark would be to remove the distributor cap and attach a plug lead to the exposed high tension terminal. Put a plug in the other end and ground the plug to the head while cranking. If you get a spark it will prove that your electrical wiring is good

    Then all that you need to do is figure out how to get the spark to each plug at the right time. Probably you can do this by rotating the distributor and changing the plug wires around to obtain the correct firing order.

    Cheers... jondee86
    Last edited by jondee86; 25-04-2019 at 09:39 AM.

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    Default Re: 4AFE into Toyota TA47 -80 RWD.

    Ok did a total breakdown of my wiring again with the distributer and did the test jondee86 said. Found that the IGT cabel was damage inside the cabel and gave signal some times but not all the times. Also hade some wierd ground signal along the G- cabel!

    Soo after som replacement of wiring and rotating the distributer 180 degrees the engine started.... it was not beutiful but a sign of life!
    https://youtu.be/OkThKrhJtwA

    Notic tough that i had a big leakage of the exhaust flange.. And some intake leakage, which i later totally understand since the soldering i did came loose..



    So now im hunting someone to weld it properly and it should be all good!
    I got some new energy tough since it seems to work fine with the swap to the front with the dizzy!

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